Majoru Oakheart
Adventurer
So, I recently joined the D&D Meetup group for my city. After I joined, I noticed that the group owner and his friends were complaining on the message boards for the group that 4e was incapable of acting as a roleplaying game and was just an PnP MMO since it removed all the CHOICE out of playing. They were mostly annoyed because they wanted to play some non-D&D games at their weekly meetup but the new players only wanted to play 4e D&D and nothing else.
I ended up making a post explaining how they could work around their issues(which were mostly related to the lack of craft and profession skills). I was jumped on by a number of their group and pretty much told that if I didn't see the problems with 4e, then I must not be a REAL roleplayer, since any real roleplayer could spot the holes in 4e a mile away.
So, I decided to go check out their group and see how they played. They welcomed me openly, claiming to show me how much problems they had.
I certainly didn't expect what their game was like. I've never played in a game like that before. We all were told to make up 5th level characters from the character generator for an Eberron game. Then essentially, their DM just told a story with minimal interaction from us. I'm paraphrasing, but here's how the game went(It's long, so I'm putting it in spoiler tags):
(edit: bah, no reason for spoiler tags, removing them)
DM: "You are following a caravan, as you follow it, you look over and see the Monk(a NPC) who joined you and you remember back to when he hired you. You had a problem with the law because the Revenant Assassin(my character) was in a card game with someone and he managed to win against someone who was clearly cheating due to his skill in cards. But then, when the guy made a big deal of it, the locals noticed that he was dead. This frightened the law and they locked him up. And the rest of you with him because you were together.
You remember the Monk bailed you out. And it cost a lot of money because the law was afraid to set you free. And in exchange, the Monk asked you to do one favor for him: To help him find a woman he was looking for. Being so grateful for his help, you all agreed and have been following this caravan. They have stopped to camp."
Me: "I think we should sneak up and take a look."
Fighter: "Who's good at Stealth?"
Me: "I am."
Artificer: "Me too."
DM: "The fighter asks who is good at Stealth and the Assassin put up his hand immediately and without hesitation with a look of confidence in his eye. Shortly after, the Artificer also says she will go too. Alright, everyone give me Stealth checks whoever is sneaking down."
(Artificer rolls a 17 and gets a total of 21. My first thought is "I thought she said she was GOOD at Stealth." I roll a 17 and get 29.)
DM: "29? WOW. You see the Assassin almost turn invisible. One second he is there and one second he is gone. Even though the Artificer has gone after him, she has difficulty finding him and just has to head in the general direction of the camp and hope she finds him. Assassin, you hear the sound of water crashing into a pool and voices up ahead. You hear someone say 'Where do you put my shirt?' and some arguing. Up ahead, the trees are thick and hard to see through. Keep in mind that these are primeval forests, not the forests of today. You proceed past the men bathing in the pool nearby, the sound of the waterfall masking your progress until you reach the camp.
There is lots of noise in the camp so it easily covers you as you get closer. In the camp you see a couple of people. One, the Fighter recognizes (The fighter couldn't even see the camp from where he was standing, by the way) as Bob (can't remember the name). He is the evil slaver you met in your travels before. He is a vile, wicked man who traffics in flesh and mistreats his slaves. As you watch this man walk towards a wagon that is covered, obviously to prevent people from noticing that it contains slaves. An arm comes out from behind the covering in order to move it aside to see where the person is. It is quickly smacked aside by the club wielded by the man.
As you watch the camp, the Artificer finally finds you and lays down beside you. You are aware that she makes way more noise than you and you quickly tell her to be quiet. As you look back at the camp, you spot about 40 men. Mostly, they are human but some appear to have hobgoblin heritage. Then you see a man whose face triggers a memory in you.
You suddenly see his face. You know you are alive again. You attempt to dodge his blow, but he is too fast for you. The Hobgoblin in the camp distracts you for a second and as you look at him, the man manages to stab you in the back. Then everything goes black. You remember he was the one who slayed you.
You snap back to the present. You are watching the camp and everyone works to prepare fires for the evening. What we have here is a choice. You have Good people amongst you and they cannot allow these slavers to continue their work. But as you look, you can see that the woman you are looking for is not amongst the camp. The monk suddenly appears beside you, just as silent as you are. He says that if you stop to deal with the camp, all hope is lost in finding this woman he is looking for. But if you choose to do something about it, he will understand. He cannot stand slavers either. If he needs to trade the life of one person for the lives of many, he will make that trade. But it is up to you.
And as you stand here pondering this decision, it becomes evening and the sun goes completely down. But it doesn't become a quiet night. Some people do go to sleep and there are less people active and guarding the camp. They light small lanterns all over the camp."
(The DM finally stops speaking long enough for me to say something.)
Me: "I guess we should go back and ask the rest of the group what they want."
(15 or so seconds pass with no one in the group answering me)
DM: "Quickly...the longer it takes you to decide, the more time passes. It is now late evening."
Artificer: "That might be a good idea."
DM: "You slowly make your way back through the forest. You can hear more people have headed out to the waterfall to bathe. You can hear a half-orc voice bellowing in happy tones, obviously glad to be in the water...."
(and it goes on, and on and on like that)
What I realized afterwords was that there wasn't much roleplaying at all. There was a lot of STORYTELLING in that the DM told us an interesting story with a lot of immersion and detail. But what really drove it home for me was when the DM finally presented this choice in this way:
"You have a choice. There are slavers and a camp of 40 people. You want to stop them because they are evil. There is a way to stop them without bloodshed, however. You need can figure it out if you try hard enough. You know that they are selling the slaves before reaching their destination. Come on guys, use your knowledge."
One of the players said "We could go ahead and take out the buyers then pose as the buyers and then buy the slaves."
DM: "That might work, but likely you'll alert them to your presence and you don't know what the buyers look like."
Me: "We could sneak in and free the slaves before they get sold."
DM: "You know that this guy is likely to turn the caravan around and go back home if he loses he slaves before the deal. And you must follow the caravan to find the woman you are looking for. If you alert them, you won't ever find her."
Wizard: "Umm, we could wait until after the sale and then kill the buyers and free the slaves"
DM: "Ding Ding Ding. That's the best plan there is. Have 250 bonus XP for thinking up that plan."
I'm just wondering if other people out there play in this style....barely picking up the dice or having a choice until the DM gives you one. I was mostly thrown because this group of people reamed me out for not roleplaying enough when I described how our group worked and then I don't believe what they were doing counts strictly as "roleplaying" either.
I ended up making a post explaining how they could work around their issues(which were mostly related to the lack of craft and profession skills). I was jumped on by a number of their group and pretty much told that if I didn't see the problems with 4e, then I must not be a REAL roleplayer, since any real roleplayer could spot the holes in 4e a mile away.
So, I decided to go check out their group and see how they played. They welcomed me openly, claiming to show me how much problems they had.
I certainly didn't expect what their game was like. I've never played in a game like that before. We all were told to make up 5th level characters from the character generator for an Eberron game. Then essentially, their DM just told a story with minimal interaction from us. I'm paraphrasing, but here's how the game went(It's long, so I'm putting it in spoiler tags):
(edit: bah, no reason for spoiler tags, removing them)
DM: "You are following a caravan, as you follow it, you look over and see the Monk(a NPC) who joined you and you remember back to when he hired you. You had a problem with the law because the Revenant Assassin(my character) was in a card game with someone and he managed to win against someone who was clearly cheating due to his skill in cards. But then, when the guy made a big deal of it, the locals noticed that he was dead. This frightened the law and they locked him up. And the rest of you with him because you were together.
You remember the Monk bailed you out. And it cost a lot of money because the law was afraid to set you free. And in exchange, the Monk asked you to do one favor for him: To help him find a woman he was looking for. Being so grateful for his help, you all agreed and have been following this caravan. They have stopped to camp."
Me: "I think we should sneak up and take a look."
Fighter: "Who's good at Stealth?"
Me: "I am."
Artificer: "Me too."
DM: "The fighter asks who is good at Stealth and the Assassin put up his hand immediately and without hesitation with a look of confidence in his eye. Shortly after, the Artificer also says she will go too. Alright, everyone give me Stealth checks whoever is sneaking down."
(Artificer rolls a 17 and gets a total of 21. My first thought is "I thought she said she was GOOD at Stealth." I roll a 17 and get 29.)
DM: "29? WOW. You see the Assassin almost turn invisible. One second he is there and one second he is gone. Even though the Artificer has gone after him, she has difficulty finding him and just has to head in the general direction of the camp and hope she finds him. Assassin, you hear the sound of water crashing into a pool and voices up ahead. You hear someone say 'Where do you put my shirt?' and some arguing. Up ahead, the trees are thick and hard to see through. Keep in mind that these are primeval forests, not the forests of today. You proceed past the men bathing in the pool nearby, the sound of the waterfall masking your progress until you reach the camp.
There is lots of noise in the camp so it easily covers you as you get closer. In the camp you see a couple of people. One, the Fighter recognizes (The fighter couldn't even see the camp from where he was standing, by the way) as Bob (can't remember the name). He is the evil slaver you met in your travels before. He is a vile, wicked man who traffics in flesh and mistreats his slaves. As you watch this man walk towards a wagon that is covered, obviously to prevent people from noticing that it contains slaves. An arm comes out from behind the covering in order to move it aside to see where the person is. It is quickly smacked aside by the club wielded by the man.
As you watch the camp, the Artificer finally finds you and lays down beside you. You are aware that she makes way more noise than you and you quickly tell her to be quiet. As you look back at the camp, you spot about 40 men. Mostly, they are human but some appear to have hobgoblin heritage. Then you see a man whose face triggers a memory in you.
You suddenly see his face. You know you are alive again. You attempt to dodge his blow, but he is too fast for you. The Hobgoblin in the camp distracts you for a second and as you look at him, the man manages to stab you in the back. Then everything goes black. You remember he was the one who slayed you.
You snap back to the present. You are watching the camp and everyone works to prepare fires for the evening. What we have here is a choice. You have Good people amongst you and they cannot allow these slavers to continue their work. But as you look, you can see that the woman you are looking for is not amongst the camp. The monk suddenly appears beside you, just as silent as you are. He says that if you stop to deal with the camp, all hope is lost in finding this woman he is looking for. But if you choose to do something about it, he will understand. He cannot stand slavers either. If he needs to trade the life of one person for the lives of many, he will make that trade. But it is up to you.
And as you stand here pondering this decision, it becomes evening and the sun goes completely down. But it doesn't become a quiet night. Some people do go to sleep and there are less people active and guarding the camp. They light small lanterns all over the camp."
(The DM finally stops speaking long enough for me to say something.)
Me: "I guess we should go back and ask the rest of the group what they want."
(15 or so seconds pass with no one in the group answering me)
DM: "Quickly...the longer it takes you to decide, the more time passes. It is now late evening."
Artificer: "That might be a good idea."
DM: "You slowly make your way back through the forest. You can hear more people have headed out to the waterfall to bathe. You can hear a half-orc voice bellowing in happy tones, obviously glad to be in the water...."
(and it goes on, and on and on like that)
What I realized afterwords was that there wasn't much roleplaying at all. There was a lot of STORYTELLING in that the DM told us an interesting story with a lot of immersion and detail. But what really drove it home for me was when the DM finally presented this choice in this way:
"You have a choice. There are slavers and a camp of 40 people. You want to stop them because they are evil. There is a way to stop them without bloodshed, however. You need can figure it out if you try hard enough. You know that they are selling the slaves before reaching their destination. Come on guys, use your knowledge."
One of the players said "We could go ahead and take out the buyers then pose as the buyers and then buy the slaves."
DM: "That might work, but likely you'll alert them to your presence and you don't know what the buyers look like."
Me: "We could sneak in and free the slaves before they get sold."
DM: "You know that this guy is likely to turn the caravan around and go back home if he loses he slaves before the deal. And you must follow the caravan to find the woman you are looking for. If you alert them, you won't ever find her."
Wizard: "Umm, we could wait until after the sale and then kill the buyers and free the slaves"
DM: "Ding Ding Ding. That's the best plan there is. Have 250 bonus XP for thinking up that plan."
I'm just wondering if other people out there play in this style....barely picking up the dice or having a choice until the DM gives you one. I was mostly thrown because this group of people reamed me out for not roleplaying enough when I described how our group worked and then I don't believe what they were doing counts strictly as "roleplaying" either.
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