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Strange Lands brings Scarred Lands line to a close

ForceUser

Explorer
Nightfall said:
*resists urge to start choking someone...*

And I suppose I should be grateful for something like Complete Divine instead?
It's just a matter of preference. Complete Divine, while not the strongest WotC product, has stuff I actually use. It's not bad.

I wrote off S&SS a long time ago, and not without giving them a fair shake. I bought three SL hardcovers and two Ravenloft hardcovers (I think; two books anyway) before drawing my conclusions about S&SS. I gave them well over a hundred bucks for pretty substandard d20 overall. I gave them their shot. I've moved on.
 

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Tyler Do'Urden

Soap Maker
ForceUser said:
I'm glad this craptastic setting is finally tanking. I've felt Scarred Lands was a waste of tree flesh since I bought the last of my three SL purchases a couple of years ago and realized that all three were, relatively speaking, terrible d20 products (Relics & Rituals, CC I & II). I use them for coasters.


Um... yeah. That's about all I have to say to that.

Now, I wasn't a big fan of the Scarred Lands setting myself... it didn't do much for me on the whole- BUT, much like the Forgotten Realms, I did buy several of the books, and plundered a tremendous amount of good gaming out of them- pilfered eagerly for my homebrew, Midnight, Diamond Throne, Excaliber, and Planescape games.

While I won't miss the setting, it does mark the end of an era. Creature Collection I came out before the Monster Manual, and, though riddled with errors, was still superior to a lot of third-party tripe that was being cranked out years later (and, unlike some of those companies, White Wolf actually came out with a complete revision). It's been with us from the beginning, and to see it end, well, it's certainly a milestone for d20.
 

Jeremy E Grenemyer

Feisty
Supporter
Hello,

Well this sucks stinky beans.

Some of the most used spells and magic items –as well as terrifying creature encounters– in my Realms campaign came from Scarred Lands sourcebooks.

Heck, the only 3E campaign I’ve had time to play a character in was a Scarred Lands game, in which I had an absolute blast playing a Halfling Barbarian/Cleric of Vangal (and later an Elven Paladin of Corean).

Darn it.

J. Grenemyer
 
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PJ-Mason

First Post
Poor Nightfall. I bet this thread is making him feel SOOO much better! :cool:

If it makes you feel better, maybe i am just the kinda guy who should just buy gazeteers and maybe the setting hardcovers, then nothing else. I never seem to be happy when companies try to expand their settings. So Scarred Lands really isn't worse than others.

Maybe its because when settings get popular a lot of books come out and a lot of writers who had nothing to do with the original concept get their schlubby hands all over it.
 

Trickstergod

First Post
Ack, you know, Duncan, I was going over the guides in my head as I posted and just skipped over the Paladin and Monk guide - likely because I try to selectively ignore the Monk.

So 5 player's class guides and 36 books total. Heh.

Anyway, my thoughts on the setting's shortcomings and eventual demise:

First off, yes, the fact that it's a third party contributed to this, to a degree. Official tends to mean something, I think, regardless of whether or not it should. When I first picked up the Creature Collection, my thoughts were: this is being put out by a division of White Wolf and, therefore, should be able to be trusted. Of course, that proved rather wrong, but then, this was in the early days of d20. The point still stands: I was familiar with White Wolf, knew White Wolf and trusted them ahead of time due to my enjoyment of the World of Darkness whereas other companies I had less faith in. Similar thoughts likely entered into other buyers heads: they knew this company or that one producing d20 books, so stuck with them. Them and, of course, the one constant - Wizards of the Coast.

So officiality means something. But that's not all that does, obviously.

Let's go back to the first Creature Collection. Bad first impression to be found there, once people became familiar with the d20 system. In the short term, I understand it was quite a good seller, but in the long run, as a first impression that, upon closer inspection, wasn't so hot, possibly lead to distrust in Sword and Sorcery Studios and the Scarred Lands. The mechanics weren't there and flavor is generally going to be hit and miss.

From there, while I do believe the mechanics picked up from that book, they never truly were as solid as they should have been. The setting had flavor, but lacked a solid mechanics base. The Creature Collection Revised showed a lack of understanding about level adjustment and the enhanced character level. Crimson Abyss showed a lack of understanding about how base attack bonus and base saving throws advanced. While little things, they're also relatively basic and echoed throughout the other books, sometimes more subtley, sometimes more blatantly. In either case, even in the best of Scarred Lands books, I think the mechanical foundation was a bit wanting.

Related to that, I believe that the release of Echoes of the Past couldn't have been timed worse. A 3rd edition psionic-based book coming out within a month or so of psionic rules being revised isn't likely a good thing. I lack sales figures for this (and for most of the books, so this all boils down to how I see things), but I wouldn't imagine them to be great. A niche within a niche (campaign setting and psionics) with essentially obsolete rules? I can easily see this book having tanked and badly.

The transition from 3rd to 3.5 may have hurt the setting all around. The player's class guides, for example, showed an imperfect understanding of the rules changes. This is understandable - but, by that same token, I can still see that having contributed to flagging sales. That these books already aped what was currently out - the various class guides put out by Wizards or other companies - also means that there was a smaller crowd looking for them. For my part, while I don't think they were necessarily bad, I don't find them substantially better than the other class guides. If you're not into the Scarred Lands, they're arguably worse, because they're strongly tied to the setting. By that same token, for a Scarred Lands fan, they do become better than the others, perhaps - but I don't believe that's quite enough.

Edge of Infinity came out right around the end and decision making time, anyway, but it suffers from the same problem as the player's guides - it too closely resembles the Manual of the Planes without being substantially better unless you enjoy the setting. Arguably worse if you don't enjoy it.

Missing Info: It's all well and good that Joseph finally posted the Ignan template on-line, but it should have been in the Scarred Lands Player's Guide to Wizards, Bards and Sorcerers. Just like the various monsters described in the Termana hardcover should have been in the third Creature Collection, like the Termana hardcover said they were going to be. Web enhancements certainly help, I think, but I don't think many gamers bother with that stuff. If something is supposed to be in a book and isn't, well, there's a dissatisfied customer who might not bother with the setting or publisher again.

Now, here we begin treading even more towards opinion then a few not too far out assumptions/leaps of logic...

Metaplot: This started to kill the setting for me. Within a relatively short span of time, as I saw it, the setting started to change. A god was brought back from the dead. Locked djinn cities were burst open. Unique setting races were turned over to humdrum, vanilla normal versions of that race. Things I initially enjoyed about the setting were destroyed by the grindstone of plot. For my part, I don't pick up campaign settings so they can change on me, I pick them up for the pieces that I can later move. Once a setting begins changing, it starts to look less like what initially attracted people to it in the first place.

Mood/atmosphere drift: When I'd initially picked up the first Creature Collection, Relics and Rituals and even the Divine and the Defeated, the setting came across as a rare-magic, gritty setting that was fairly focused around the Mediterranean in feel, with touches of the Mesopotamians, Greeks, Romans and their myths. The more books that came out, the more it started to gloss itself up, pump up the magic and diffuse its world focus from the Middle East and Eastern Europe to the whole durn world. This came fairly early on - as of at least the Ghelspad hardcover if not sooner - but it still stands that I believe the setting lost the initial focus it had roughly in place. The books that described gods throwing down titans, of magic items being too precious to be readily sold and a city-state system reminiscent of the ancient world gave way to pearl divers, massive nations over city-states (Termana has not a one city-state) and being right out called high-magic. The setting still had a bit more edge to it then other mainstream settings, but it still came across as fairly blunted and generic over the passage of a number of books. There became less and less to distinguish it from other settings. Towards the end, this almost seemed deliberate: forsaken elves became high elves and Termana has a stronger monster focus on yuan-ti and gnolls rather then asaatthi and ratmen. Perhaps an attempt to broaden the fanbase but, apparently, it didn't work.

I also believe the setting originally had a fresh, raw feel to it. The big stuff happened 150 years ago. There are still folk around in the setting who remember it. The devastation is still recent, new. This gets quickly dispelled - history after history roles around, killing that fresh feeling. Perhaps hard to hold onto, but, all the same - the setting was diminished for being unable to hold that spark.

Inconsistencies: Some of these were hard to avoid. The setting didn't seem too pegged out as of Relics and Rituals and the first Creature Collection. Still - ideas that were previously made to be settings standards (give proper due to all the gods as a pantheon, or the individuals you neglect will smite you, established at least as early as Mithril), was later ignored in future books (such as the unexplained singular Chardun worship in the Faithful and the Forsaken). More and more there seemed to be less setting cohesion. It's not that all the ideas were necessarily bad ones - just that they didn't jive with the setting, or outright contradicted it in some places.

While I personally enjoyed the other continents of Scarn being explored, I can't deny that there's a number of people who weren't pleased with that fact. I certainly believe there's a case to be made for the setting having over-extended itself. Too much, too soon.

Continuing in that vein, others have also mentioned a glut of products: At 35 books thus printed, in the span of, say...4 years...that's over one book every two months. A few have complained this was too fast. In light of the low quality some of these books have, I have to agree. The thought may have been that the products have to get out so that people see them, so that S&SS can compete, so that they're in everyone's minds...whatever. I don't know. It doesn't seem to have worked, though. The rapid pace seems to have backfired.

I'll also say that I think some of the books were, simply put, just horribly written, and leave it at that. Some of it's a matter of opinion. Tastes differ. I've written a number of reviews and very well might write a few more on Scarred Lands products in the days to come (at this point, I don't think even a bad one could hurt). Go see my opinions there.

And, lastly, Nightfall: This isn't meant as an attack. The setting's done with now, anyway. But your pimping of the Scarred Lands generally came off as too strong, too fanboyish and, at points, drove me to despise the setting. I believe it hurt, not helped, the setting. I'm not saying I was any better - I've been fairly critical of the setting fairly consistently - but I've never claimed to be the setting's PR fan. It's to be expected that anyone trying to sell something is probably partial to it, but Nightfall, you came off a little too strong - and sometimes quite confrontational to anyone who didn't seem all that enthused with the setting. I do think you drew some folk in but, by that same token, pushed others away who might otherwise have enjoyed the setting. If it means much, I don't believe the difference was that large - just one of those many factors as I've already gone through.

Heck, I'll even go so far as to say I may have hurt the setting - I've people in my reviews saying they didn't buy a book because of what I wrote. I still stand by what I wrote, but it can certainly be given some blame.

Anyway. Hopefully I've not pushed anyone too wrong - by this point, I don't know that it matters anymore, anyway. While I doubt the Scarred Lands will come back, at least in S&SS's hands (once a setting's failed, after all, even if it was due to mismanagement and poor writer choices rather then setting quality, I don't see it being seen as economically viable by the money-folk), perhaps something can be learned here. Particularly for the Ravenloft line, which I feel may suffer a similar fate in the future...
 

Brennin Magalus

First Post
ForceUser said:
I'm glad this craptastic setting is finally tanking. I've felt Scarred Lands was a waste of tree flesh since I bought the last of my three SL purchases a couple of years ago and realized that all three were, relatively speaking, terrible d20 products (Relics & Rituals, CC I & II). I use them for coasters.

De gustibus non est disputandum. Relics & Rituals I and II are excellent d20 books.
 

Telperion

First Post
Trickstergod said:
Anyway, my thoughts on the setting's shortcomings and eventual demise:

Related to that, I believe that the release of Echoes of the Past couldn't have been timed worse. A 3rd edition psionic-based book coming out within a month or so of psionic rules being revised isn't likely a good thing. I lack sales figures for this (and for most of the books, so this all boils down to how I see things), but I wouldn't imagine them to be great. A niche within a niche (campaign setting and psionics) with essentially obsolete rules? I can easily see this book having tanked and badly.

Not to mention that the Slarecians were depicted as an ancient, long lost, race that was destroyed/exiled by a one-time-only union of the Gods and Titans. So, if those two groups couldn't get rid of the Slarecians, then there's nothing that can in my book. Anyway, I have yet to pick up the Slarecian book, and I never will. As if SL needed yet another group of bad guys...

Edge of Infinity came out right around the end and decision making time, anyway, but it suffers from the same problem as the player's guides - it too closely resembles the Manual of the Planes without being substantially better unless you enjoy the setting. Arguably worse if you don't enjoy it.

The one thing that really annoyed me was the fact that at the beginning, when the gazetteer to Ghelspad came out at the very end of the booklet there was talk about how the Planes are locked away by the Gods. How they have set guardians and wards on all the doors, how they control the pathways and so forth. This gave of a very strong Matrix-esque feeling and I loved it, since I have always found Planar Adventuring to be more of a headache than anything good. Totally denying Planar Travel would be just lame, but this way only the mightiest of characters would tempt the wrath of the Gods. Then the whole thing gets messed up by Edge of Infinity and by little bits and pieces here and there...

Metaplot: This started to kill the setting for me. Within a relatively short span of time, as I saw it, the setting started to change. A god was brought back from the dead. Locked djinn cities were burst open. Unique setting races were turned over to humdrum, vanilla normal versions of that race. Things I initially enjoyed about the setting were destroyed by the grindstone of plot. For my part, I don't pick up campaign settings so they can change on me, I pick them up for the pieces that I can later move. Once a setting begins changing, it starts to look less like what initially attracted people to it in the first place.

Yep. SL was metaplot free for a good long time. When those metaplot books / novels showed up I took my business elsewhere.

Mood/atmosphere drift: When I'd initially picked up the first Creature Collection, Relics and Rituals and even the Divine and the Defeated, the setting came across as a rare-magic, gritty setting that was fairly focused around the Mediterranean in feel, with touches of the Mesopotamians, Greeks, Romans and their myths. The more books that came out, the more it started to gloss itself up, pump up the magic and diffuse its world focus from the Middle East and Eastern Europe to the whole durn world. This came fairly early on - as of at least the Ghelspad hardcover if not sooner - but it still stands that I believe the setting lost the initial focus it had roughly in place.
I also believe the setting originally had a fresh, raw feel to it. The big stuff happened 150 years ago. There are still folk around in the setting who remember it. The devastation is still recent, new. This gets quickly dispelled - history after history roles around, killing that fresh feeling. Perhaps hard to hold onto, but, all the same - the setting was diminished for being unable to hold that spark.

I still see SL as a gritty, low-magic, world that is on the brink of destruction. There's a post-apocalyptic feel to it that hasn't gone anywhere for me. And, yes, I didn't particularly like the Termana hardcover as it turned out. If I someday allow my players over to Termana I'll probably shrink those nations significantly and make the whole continent a whole lot more rural and savage. The way I first pictured it...Yes, I'll do just that...


While I personally enjoyed the other continents of Scarn being explored, I can't deny that there's a number of people who weren't pleased with that fact. I certainly believe there's a case to be made for the setting having over-extended itself. Too much, too soon.

Agreed. However, now that I have all the material on SL I need there's probably going to be whole lot of homebrewing on those other continents. I like Ghelspad as it is, and the other continents have potentia. I just have to deconstruct a whole lot of stuff the books got "wrong" and make it "better". Well, for me and my players anyway...
 
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