Strange Lands brings Scarred Lands line to a close

[takyris]

Isn't this sort of the dirty little secret of the RPG world, that any setting -- heck, any game, to some extent -- will eventually destroy itself? The RPG companies, by and large, are trying to turn an inherently one-time-purchase-based market ("All you need is this book, some dice, pencil and paper, and your imagination!") into a continue-to-purchase market by sheer force of will. To make an old MST3k reference, they're turning it into the Johnny Long-Torso of hobbies -- the game that is itself sold separately.

I don't hate gaming companies -- they've given me years of enjoyment, and they've done it for less than the cost of a movie every week -- but I don't think I have the mindset they want. I'm inclined to use the core books, add in new stuff myself, and work from there. With the D&D corebooks, the M&M corebook, the d20 Modern Corebook, and Unearthed Arcana, there's just about nothing I can't run. I'm looking at Blue Rose and d20 Future, but even if I got both of those, that's not going to sustain Green Ronin or WotC.

This is not an attempt to dance on the grave of the Scarred Lands -- while I never bought it, because I never needed it, I was impressed to see a setting that wasn't WotC-backed put out some good and popular material. It's not an argument for another solutions, either -- 'cause really, I got nothin'. I have no idea how to make this work. Maybe the RPG industry just isn't meant to be what it is now. I dunno.

 

[scourger]

Thirty-eight (38) titles on the WW website, and according to this thread only THREE (3!) adventures. To me, that's the formula of failure. I don't own any of it as one of my earstwhile gaming buddies was buying it all and wasn't finished not running it yet, but why bother? It's just too much setting for not enough adventures (for me).

Go Necromancer! Meospotamia is a wonderful market enrichment counterpoint to the WW/SL exploitation method of marketing.

 

[The_Gneech]

Isn't this sort of the dirty little secret of the RPG world, that any setting -- heck, any game, to some extent -- will eventually destroy itself? The RPG companies, by and large, are trying to turn an inherently one-time-purchase-based market ("All you need is this book, some dice, pencil and paper, and your imagination!") into a continue-to-purchase market by sheer force of will. To make an old MST3k reference, they're turning it into the Johnny Long-Torso of hobbies -- the game that is itself sold separately.

Well, it's not necessarily a one-time-purchase-based market, any more than you're done buying M:TG cards once you've got the starter set. I buy Dungeon every month, for instance ... any one issue of which is nowhere near the price of one hardcover, but at the same time, I buy it every month. What a lot of gaming companies have trouble with, is the same thing Hollywood tends to, which is Blockbusteritis. They get so excited by one $50 payoff, that they completely miss the more pedestrian pleasure of 100 payoffs of $1 each. For a company to really do well, it should be looking for ways to go after both, IMO.

-The Gneech

 

[shady]

I have, by my count, 7 of the books: CC1R, CC2, RR1, RR2, Divine and Defeated, Ghelspad and Wilderness and Wastelands. More recently I stopped buying them. Why?
- Possibly my book spending dropped a little when the miniatures line hit the market; not much but that one book every couple of months might have been an SL one.
- Some other D20 books pulled ahead - Monte Cook's stuff, Grim Tales, SSS's own D20 reworkings of Trinity. I'll probably buy Green Ronin's advanced guides when they come out, for example, so although I do buy most WotC stuff, I don't stop there.
- Specifically on SL, I never thought the stuff was quite there. Nearly but not quite. The production values were nowhere near WotC, or for that matter some of the other stuff on the market. If they had been as compelling as say, Monsternomicon, I'd have been queueing up. Though ten times better than (to take my own pet dislike) Kalamar, which is in turn ten times better alot of other stuff, it was still more than an ace away from being compelling. In a competitive market you have to make compelling stuff, especially if you're going put it in a hardback cover and charge that kind of price for it.

 

[Nightfall]

First thanks to Breninn and Psion for at least proving that there is more to CC 1 and the R&R series (related to Scarred Lands, not those fakes.)

Secondly directed at scourger, adventures tend to have diminish returns. Coupled with the fact everyone and his mother at the start of d20 were doing adventures, S&SS decided to keep playing to its strength.

To my favorite adversary, Trick.

While you and I disagree on some points, I do accept your critque of my "fanboyishness". (And yes Numion, unlike WotC fan boys I don't wet my self at the thought of meeting Steve Wieck or Joseph Carriker. I just smile broadly.)

Overall though I do agree with a couple of your assessments. Specially relating to Echoes (which while it was good they included Mindscapes stuff, it might have been better served to wait for 3.5 rules WHICH are much better for psionics and even for the Scarred Lands. But I don't mind the fact that they (the Slacerians) are godsminds. They are cooler that way IMHO.)

Secondly I will say the metaplot kind of wided the gap for some. But for me, my problem stemmed from the fact that while Byer's writing was decent, the plot could have been better. (Much rather they'd use some other spring point.)

Thirdly, and in this I agree completely, the production values could have been better. What really starkly showed that for me, was in fact Malhavoc Press. Monte and his friends could easily produce a great looking PDF at half the cost...and some times (such as in the case with one section of Hollowfaust) we'd get jipped in terms of "Hey where's the map?!" or "Gee this art work sucks!" In any event that's some things I'll agree with Trick. But even with all that flaws, I still felt Scarred Lands was one of the top d20 settings.

JoshD,

Uhm no the fact is when you make ANYTHING other than setting a major selling point you break a setting. Bad stragety or no, the fact is when you have a setting based on novels, then start to go off from the book cannon, the book people will scream bloody murder. The reverse is true also.

Marketing saturation isn't something I believe in folks. I do believe in niche marketing, but the fact is unless/until WotC says out loud "You should buy THIS setting" the WotC fanboys will snub their noses. (And I think Trick will agree there.)

Zelda,

My only comment is that if you read the description about Hags, it's apparent they should be templates. I mean how else do you get these hags? (Yes I know not everything needs to be a template but Hags should have been as much as Unhallowed.) Also can I please have this count of Paladin prestige classes. So far I've only counted the four Adamantine Church Pr-classes (which makes sense!), the two in Ghelspad and I believe the 3-4 in the PG for Paladins.

 

[Desdichado]

Uhm no the fact is when you make ANYTHING other than setting a major selling point you break a setting. Bad stragety or no, the fact is when you have a setting based on novels, then start to go off from the book cannon, the book people will scream bloody murder. The reverse is true also.

Who screamed bloody murder? That's not what I'm talking about; I'm talking about Dragonlance having a setting that lived and died by the novels to the point that it was almost unplayable. Forgotten Realms was doing it right for a while until some craptacular authors couldn't figure out a halfway interesting plot without making major setting changes; I think that's where most folks dissatisfaction with the FR novels begins. The very fact that there are novels in no way hurts the setting; in fact, clearly for both those settings, it launched them into popularity initially, before a badly thought out novel strategy disillusioned would-be players.

 

[coyote6]

The very fact that there are novels in no way hurts the setting; in fact, clearly for both those settings, it launched them into popularity initially, before a badly thought out novel strategy disillusioned would-be players.

I agree. I prefer developments in my game settings to be driven by elements of the game -- adventures or at the very least, really neat sourcebooks.

Some SR players didn't like the Horrors/Harlequin/etc. metaplot -- but at least the PCs got to take part in most of it, through the various adventures & sourcebooks.

If you're going to shake up the world, let the PCs have a chance at getting a piece of the action.

 

[Duncan Haldane]

Thirty-eight (38) titles on the WW website, and according to this thread only THREE (3!) adventures. To me, that's the formula of failure. I don't own any of it as one of my earstwhile gaming buddies was buying it all and wasn't finished not running it yet, but why bother? It's just too much setting for not enough adventures (for me).

Go Necromancer! Meospotamia is a wonderful market enrichment counterpoint to the WW/SL exploitation method of marketing.

Adventures only sell to DMs who might run them, while Rules books can sell to players.

Duncan

 

[Turjan]

Looking back, I still think that the Scarred Lands are one of the most exciting settings that ever came out during the 3.x era. There is enough material out for having a lifetime of adventures. However, I completely agree with Trickstergod on his analysis.

CC1 was one of the first D20 books I ever bought, and although I found the monsters very interesting, the mechanical faults left me wanting. I'm not good at mechanics. Those people who have played D&D for a decade might be able to wing and correct everything, but I can't. I expect a publisher to do this work for me; that's why I buy his stuff. Nevertheless, I bought R&R(1). Same problem: The contents was exciting, just to mention ritual magic, but the spells; they somehow looked all wrong to me.This left me with a deep distrust for anything containing game mechanics in the Scarred Lands line, and I never bought R&R2.

The setting always shined when mechanics were unimportant. I hesitated before buying the Divine and the Defeated, but after I finally bought it I never had regrets. The gods of the Scarred Lands are among the most vividly painted deities in all fantasy settings that I know. Enkili anyone? Hollowfaust was a wonderful idea, just a usable map would have been nice. The Ghelspad Campaign setting showcased the whole of the continent as a versatile and interesting place for adventures. Mithril and Shelzar are both great places to start a campaign (again, a better map especially for Shelzar would have been a plus). Wilderness & Wastelands is not just a book of tables, but adds some nice locales.

Other books though left me cold, and some of the topics did not really interest me. Then there is the metaplot thing, this constant urge to change and twist things. I really liked the ambiguity in the historical tales in the Ghelspad Campaing Setting, because it left many stories a mystery with different contents, depending on who spun the tale. Later books were less ambiguous, thereby dismantling the myth. Did I say I liked how the gods were presented? Then there came a book like "Blood Bayou" that demolished the mystery of Momus and introduced another death threat to Scarn named Psyclus. It's a well written book that, nevertheless, was great disservice to the setting, although it portrayed quite a few interesting ideas. Unfortunately, this was not a unique case. "Blood Bayou" was the last Scarred Lands book I bought.

 

[DragonLancer]

Gonna quote you because you make some good points.

Related to that, I believe that the release of Echoes of the Past couldn't have been timed worse. A 3rd edition psionic-based book coming out within a month or so of psionic rules being revised isn't likely a good thing. I lack sales figures for this (and for most of the books, so this all boils down to how I see things), but I wouldn't imagine them to be great. A niche within a niche (campaign setting and psionics) with essentially obsolete rules? I can easily see this book having tanked and badly.

Aye. I bought Echoes of the Past after I stopped with SL, because I hopped ot would have been useful as source material for using the Slarecians in other campaigns, and it had some great material in there. But by not holding on till the XPh was released meant it was gonna just sit on the shelf, so like most of my SL material it's been sold on EBay.

The transition from 3rd to 3.5 may have hurt the setting all around. The player's class guides, for example, showed an imperfect understanding of the rules changes. This is understandable - but, by that same token, I can still see that having contributed to flagging sales. That these books already aped what was currently out - the various class guides put out by Wizards or other companies - also means that there was a smaller crowd looking for them. For my part, while I don't think they were necessarily bad, I don't find them substantially better than the other class guides. If you're not into the Scarred Lands, they're arguably worse, because they're strongly tied to the setting. By that same token, for a Scarred Lands fan, they do become better than the others, perhaps - but I don't believe that's quite enough.

I never bought these so I can't really comment, but from what I have seen flicking through a friend's copy, I was really put out on the sheer number of PrC's that were made for the setting. Every book had a good half dozen I think and not just the class books.

Metaplot: This started to kill the setting for me. Within a relatively short span of time, as I saw it, the setting started to change. A god was brought back from the dead. Locked djinn cities were burst open. Unique setting races were turned over to humdrum, vanilla normal versions of that race. Things I initially enjoyed about the setting were destroyed by the grindstone of plot. For my part, I don't pick up campaign settings so they can change on me, I pick them up for the pieces that I can later move. Once a setting begins changing, it starts to look less like what initially attracted people to it in the first place.

Normally I like metaplots (I'm one of the few VtM gamers who liked it), but I didn't care for it with Scarred Lands, though because it changed too much but more because I wanted a static world.
Though I like metaplots, I am becoming fed up of them in D&D campaigns. I want the world almost in stasis, unchanging from one product to the next.

Mood/atmosphere drift: When I'd initially picked up the first Creature Collection, Relics and Rituals and even the Divine and the Defeated, the setting came across as a rare-magic, gritty setting that was fairly focused around the Mediterranean in feel, with touches of the Mesopotamians, Greeks, Romans and their myths. The more books that came out, the more it started to gloss itself up, pump up the magic and diffuse its world focus from the Middle East and Eastern Europe to the whole durn world. This came fairly early on - as of at least the Ghelspad hardcover if not sooner - but it still stands that I believe the setting lost the initial focus it had roughly in place. The books that described gods throwing down titans, of magic items being too precious to be readily sold and a city-state system reminiscent of the ancient world gave way to pearl divers, massive nations over city-states (Termana has not a one city-state) and being right out called high-magic. The setting still had a bit more edge to it then other mainstream settings, but it still came across as fairly blunted and generic over the passage of a number of books. There became less and less to distinguish it from other settings. Towards the end, this almost seemed deliberate: forsaken elves became high elves and Termana has a stronger monster focus on yuan-ti and gnolls rather then asaatthi and ratmen. Perhaps an attempt to broaden the fanbase but, apparently, it didn't work.

When I first read the blurb about the SL in the back of the CC1, I was really hoping that by the sounds of it we had a D&D setting based heavily on the Greek myths and with that same feel. Unfortunately it wasn't and it turned into just another D&D setting. I know thats not what Nightfall wants to hear but this was my biggest dissapointment with the setting.

While I personally enjoyed the other continents of Scarn being explored, I can't deny that there's a number of people who weren't pleased with that fact. I certainly believe there's a case to be made for the setting having over-extended itself. Too much, too soon.

Yes and no. I don't think there was much more that could have been done with Ghelspad so I was pleased that Termana was forthcoming.


Nightfall, I loved it while it was fresh and I will miss it now its gone. Hopefully, you'll remain the voice for the setting and draw new blood to it.