Strongholds?

I always wanted to play a BECMI campaign where my cleric character would start building a string of strongholds for his order to protect a pilgrimage route (built-in character background for adventuring: to find and restore a lost holy site).
 

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DragonLancer

Adventurer
Galeros said:
I always hear how people's PCs build strongholds and build up their own armies. This experience is totally alien to me as in the games I play in we pretty much always zip across the contient or world all the time and do not have time for strongholds or followers. The idea of PCs paying taxes is alien to me too cause the PCs never stay in one place long enough.

I haven't had players build and maintain strongholds since 1st ed and basic D&D days. Under 2nd and 3rd eds, no one has ever bothered.
 

IMC (3.0 @ 21st level @ 6.5 years) the party has gone full bore into Leadership and property ownership. But I pushed them there.

I wanted to make them feel heroic and the way I did that was to make them realize what it was to be common. Towns charged taxes at the gates, guards looked askance at heavily armed travelers lacking livery, and there was quite a bit of time spent cooling their heels before they got to see anyone of any importance.

After scoring their first real pile of loot and routing a few bandits, they acquired documents that declared them to be held in good standing with the merchants at a smallish town. Nothing really spectacular, but enough that guards stopped giving them the stink eye at most of the cities in the region.

Around 5th level I used the AEG module "Kuroshin's garden" (sp?). The party escorted the freed peasants to the nearest fortified town, which IMC was a fairly sizable city. The city fathers gave them some relatively minor cash reward, granted the PCs documents exempting them from the city's entry tax and the guards now knew them by sight as do-gooders.

A few months later, ~6th level, they went through the "Servants of the Blood moon" module. By the time the militia arrived, the party had cleaned up the worst of the baddies, though there were few survivors this time. The party was given military rank (captains, retired) which entitled them to a military trial instead of civilian law if they chose, let them use the King's Highways without toll, and gave them a smattering of authority if they ran into more weirdness but not so much that they could cause much trouble. Various minor nobles expressed a debt of gratitude and the players finally glommed onto the fact that rewards are not always golden.

After that they did their best to keep their more questionable adventures quiet and to find ways to play up the good things to the powers that be. Kill a bullette? Get the head mounted and present it to the local lord as a gift. They began offering their services as compared to asking for work. The rewards were a bit less tangible at first (introductions to more powerful people) but led to opportunities for investment (more adventure hooks), grants of land, and more authority. (The PCs hold the rank of colonel in the King's Company; enough to outrank a baron, argue with a count or get a duke to take you seriously.) They could draw on the militia's resources, didn't pay any entry taxes or tolls, and could demand lodging from any noble or town. With the exceptions of dukes and royalty they almost never spend time waiting for someone to see them. When traveling to other countries they are given healthy respect (if sometimes tinged with fear or mistrust) as their documents, dress, and livery marks them to be dangerous people, both from what they can do and who they know.

They covet land because they've realized that land is the real source of wealth. A blacksmith with no place to set his anvil is just a man with a heavy load. They had acquired several small properties; some gifts, others as part of an agreement, one an outright purchase. Now they are vying to claim their own country, a place about the size of Singapore, that was a territory of the elves but was officially abandoned after a greater demon destroyed the only city of note.
 

Kid Charlemagne

I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
kigmatzomat said:
...Snip much good stuff...
A blacksmith with no place to set his anvil is just a man with a heavy load.

Good stuff. My PC's are starting to pick up on the value of status as opposed to merely power. They've acquired several parcels of land and buildings in various places that they've been.

The biggest challenge I have is that things are somewhat spread out - I'm tempted to come up with a simple method to allow them to travel via portals to their various residences so that they can actually see some in-game use.
 

Drowbane

First Post
Raistlin717 said:
But do you believe that a high-level character should build a stronghold even at epic levels??
Because most PC's worry that their strongholds will come under siege and its true they require alot of protection of opposing forces and can easily be destroyed with the right abilities/spells.

Hey, gotta park my Airship and Army of Undead somewhere...

kigmatzomat said:
...a bunch of awesomeness...

You can be my DM anyday, mate :D
 
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Byrons_Ghost

First Post
By the end of our 2nd ed Mystara game, most of us had dominions, either in Glantri or Norwold. The only real exception (aside from the casual, come-and-go players) was the elven fighter/mage who had lost his kingdom to an army of dragons (hint: never challenge someone who has an army of dragons at their disposal).

Since the character was the moody loner type anyhow, it didn't really matter to him. Everyone else got into it, though my chaotic illusionist wasn't much with the day-to-day red tape stuff, he just liked having the status and resources. Everything else was left to the simulacrum to administer.

In the 3e Mystara game (seeing a pattern here? :p ), only one PC ended up with a domain. This player group wasn't as interested in settling down. And, to be honest, they were getting bounced around time & space a lot. They also had a house in Glantri City and the cleric had a shop, and there were some other political ties here and there. The fire elementalist had a job teaching kindergartners how to set things on fire with magic. :cool:
 

Kid Charlemagne said:
The biggest challenge I have is that things are somewhat spread out - I'm tempted to come up with a simple method to allow them to travel via portals to their various residences so that they can actually see some in-game use.

Don't do it without seriously thinking about it. Portals can seriously screw with games.

I'd suggest picking up a copy of Magical Medieval Society:Western Europe and calculating the revenue those properties produce. Then you can let the PCs do fun stuff like take loans out against it. Sounds boring, neh? Well that's when you have an enemy buy up their loans.

An overt enemy would try to foreclose as soon as possible. A subtle enemy would forget to remind you to make the payments and let the penalties rack up.

A sneaky enemy might buy the loan, contract to buy your crops for the next five years, then foreclose after you failed to make a payment, take the crop as a penalty, and then sue you for breach of contract each of the next five years.

A downright dastardly enemy would use agent A to buy your loan, Agent B contract for your crop of X, Agent C-E for the crop of X from everyone else in the region), Agent F have a caster destroy your crop when you were gone, force you to buy X at a highly inflated price from Agents C-E for you to sell at a lower price to Agent B but not in sufficient quantity to avoid breach of contract. Agent B will agree to avoid pursuing the penalties in return for a "favor." Agent A will also verbally agree to put off payment of the loan (carefully avoiding mention of penalties), then next spring claim the seed as payment of penalties (with the option of doing some other "favor").

The favors will be setups for some horrible PR for the party that isn't blatantly obvious from the outset but that could be noticed if the players make a serious effort to investigate the situation. That way the eventual foreclosure and lawsuit (which will be done in as infuriating a manner as possible to get the PCs to do something publicly stupid) will have the weight of public opinion, so the PCs are both landless and disliked. If at all possible, the lawsuits will try to require any retainers stay with the property, not the owner, for at least a couple of years to further separate the PCs from their allies.
 

Kid Charlemagne

I am the Very Model of a Modern Moderator
That's downright nasty. Ever read The Baroque Cycle by Neal Stephenson? One of the main characters is a master at pulling just sort of financial shenanigans (in the late 1600's/early 1700's). I actually do have something similar in mind for one of my players, but I can't reveal my cards here, because some of them frequent the forums...
 

One thing I've figured out is that the best way to attack a high level party is indirectly.
Few things are tough enough to stand up to them in a straight up fight. Lots of low level people can come up with socio-economic maneuvering and are smart enough to hire a sage with Spellcraft and Knowledge:Arcana to find ways to circumvent the common magics. Middle men, cut-outs, patsies, fall guys, and unwitting pawns are the way to go. The best conspiracies look like a bunch of individuals doing their own thing.

Most players don't want to think about the grand conspiracies. Mainly because it's very hard to catch a DM doing it. We have to intentionally include mistakes and weaknesses that the party can find. It's pretty easy to hand waive away "oh, no one ever talked business to their wife!" as a DM.

I await the day my players get rude and overbearing so that I can have a giant complicated machination of vengeance that is ultimately traced back to the stable boy who got kicked into a manure pile in front of his girlfriend by the fighter.
 

Storm Raven

First Post
Hejdun said:
IMO, the 3.x system discourages strongholds, simply because it's near impossible to defend a stronghold against, well, anything. Walls are useless when there are so many ways to bypass (flying, burrowing, etherealness) or destroy them (disintegrate, move earth, stone to mud, etc.). Offense always trumps defense. Also, the system makes standard guards/soldiers (level 2-3 warriors) nearly useless against anything level/CR 5 or higher.

How is this different from any other edition of D&D?
 

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