D&D 5E Summoning Spells Idea

[SkidAce]

What if major summoning type spells that would otherwise be overpowered (by virtue of controlling two characters) or to complicated and slowing down play (by virtue of controlling two characters) need you to use your ACTION to maintain CONCENTRATION?

Functionally you could control either character, but if your main character used more than their movement or bonus reaction, i.e. they decided to use their action for an emergency fireball, then concentration ends and the creature fades back to where it came.

The idea came to me while recreating a Final Fantasy style game, where I wanted players to summon Astrals, Guardian Forces, use Materia etc, and usually while the Summons is in play the character is sidelined.

At first I had the character under the affect of a Sanctuary spell, but I think I like this better.

Thoughts?

 

[MonkeezOnFire]

It still doesn't do a lot to the spells that summon many creatures. And from what I've seen online these variations tend to be considered stronger than the single summon spells as they really strain the action economy, where as getting one additional action isn't too powerful.

This also limits how a caster can support their own summons in battle with buffs and/or healing, which seems like something a summoner might want to do. Though, I can't recall if there are any non-concentration buffs that can be applied to others. I feel like there are some but maybe not so this point could be moot as its something that summoners can't currently do.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

I have long thought that they could use something like paladin smite spells for summoned critters: you use your bonus action to power up the summoned entity, which uses your action to attack. That way the caster is still doing something, while dragging things down less than the current summoning spells do.

I am not a fan of the multiple critter summoning spells in 5e. I wouldn't mind it if you could summon 2 or 3 things, but after that, it is just annoying (time to bring out the grid, blame Joe and his 20 pixies)......

 

[SkidAce]

I hadn't thought about the multiple creatures aspect, focused as I was on big FF summons.

Perhaps I can just use my idea with specific homebrew summon spells and creatures.

Thanks.

 

[steeldragons]

Seems, the natural -as well as common sense and in-story flavor and consistency- solution.

I see no problem with it. I'm not even 100% on allowing the bonus action, but given 5e's action economy, that makes sense, I guess: "doing" Concentration with your action, moving or some bonus action that you are warranted from somewhere.

Makes sense.

I would also, for overpowered/balance's sake, make sure the summoning spells and/or features of such a _{class stipulate that you can only summon creatures of CR equal to or less than the caster's level...or, actually better, equal to or less than their proficiency bonus...half their proficiency bonus? Something. The power of the creatures summoned much be somehow kept in check.}

 

[Xeviat]

I was just thinking of looking at summoning. If a summon took your action, then the "power" of the spell would only need to be quantified by its HP; it's functionally a proactive heal if it ends up taking hits for you. They also take up space and would give you functional reach on opportunity attacks (which would cost your reaction).

If Summons only call 1 creature, it should be reasonably easy to balance.


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[Xeviat]

I had to wait till I got to my books:

If Conjure Animals is 3rd level, and it can summon 1 beast of CR 2 or lower …

If Conjure Celestial is 7th level and can summon a celestial of CR 4 or lower, and at 9th level it can summon a celestial of CR 5 or lower …

If Conjure Minor Elemental is 4th level and can summon 1 elemental of CR 2 or lower …

If Conjure Woodland Beings is 4th level and can summon 1 fey of CR 2 or lower …

If Conjure Elemental is 5th level, and can summon 1 elemental of CR 5 or lower, but it goes hostile towards you if you lose concentration, and it can increase by 1 CR for every slot level higher than 5th …

If Conjure Fey is 6th level and can summon 1 fey of CR 6 or lower, but it goes hostile when concentration is broken, and it can increase by 1 CR for every slot level higher than 6th …

Conjure Animals > Conjure Celestial suggests a progression: 1st level is CR 1, 3rd level is CR 2, 5th level is CR 3, 7th level is CR 4, and 9th level is CR 5. But 1st level for CR 1 would be a bit much, I think; A CR 1 has a lot of power and is quite a bit more powerful than a 1st level character.

The hostile summons offer a 1 for 1 progression, but they come with a big risk. I wouldn't want 1st level characters to have that power.

My really back of the envelope assessment of a Greatsword Champion Fighter's CR was (if they spread out their abilities to last 2 fights per short rest and 6 fights per day):

Level) CR (prime caster spell level)
1) 1 (1)
2) 1
3) 1 (2)
4) 2
5) 3 (3)
6) 4
7) 4 (4)
8) 5
9) 6 (5)
10) 6
11) 7 (6)
12) 8
13) 8 (7)
14) 9
15) 10 (8)
16) 10
17) 11 (9)
18) 11
19) 12
20) 14

My point is that you wouldn't want a summon to be stronger than a player. How quick would this get out of hand?

Summon Monster
1st-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 ft.
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

You summon a creature from another plane. Choose one creature of any type other than humanoid of challenge rating 1/4 or lower. The creature disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends.

The summoned creature is friendly to you and your companions. Roll initiative for the summoned creature, which has its own turns. It obeys any verbal commands that you issue to it (no action required by you). If you don't issue any commands to them, they defend themselves from hostile creatures, but otherwise take no actions.

The DM has the creature's statistics.

At Higher Levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the challenge rating increases by 1 step for each slot level above 5th. A 2nd level slot summons a CR 1/2. A 3rd level slot summons a CR 1. A 4th level slot summons a CR 2, and so forth.

---------------

That would line up with Conjure Minor Elementals and Conjure Woodland Beings at a 4th level slot. Conjure Animals is still better at 3rd level. At a 7th level slot, it would be CR 5, which would be better than Conjure Celestial, so that sounds like a no go.

Welp, I took a stab at it. I'll go back to the drawing board.

 

[steeldragons]

Well, one could say, simply, that the summoned creatures (be they 1 or more) can not be or have a combined CR of more than HALF of the caster's level, rounded down.

So, a level 1 Summoner can get a 1/2 CR (or two 1/4 CR) critter(s).
level 2: CR 1
level 3: CR 1
levels 4 & 5: CR 2
levels 6 & 7: CR 3
levels 8 & 9: CR 4
levels 10 & 11: CR 5
levels 12 & 13: CR 6

after this, if anyone realistically plays beyond these levels, basically your <sub>class features are in play (as they've been accumulating as you advance): boost your CR for a single summons (per long rest); Concentration bonus to allow a second summoning while one is already in progress (high level feature); riffing off of the Divination Expert: regain a spell slot of lower value after casting a conjuration/summoning spell; some innate Banishment-like ability when encountering conjured/extraplanar creatures; whatever else people come up with [I don't know/like this Pok-e-class idea enough to develop it].

With some kind of uber ability at 18 (if a subclass) or the 20th level capstone that basically lets them summon things any/all rounds.</sub>

 

[Awesome Adam]

I think the current summoning spells completely gimped summoning.

I would have kept it simple and let the summoned monsters CR total equal the spell level of the slot used to summon

1st level spell slot = 1 CR 1 monster, or two CR 1/2 monsters etc...

Summons last 1 round per level of caster, and require concentration. Use bonus action to direct actions of critters.

Maybe limit max number of creatures summoned to proficiency bonus

 

[MechaTarrasque]

Another thought (should they ever make 5.5, which is probably the next time a new summoning spell will show up) would be to make all summoning more like planar ally/the conjure demon spells. You summon something which you have no control over, but you can make a deal.

* Wizards and bards know a lot of stuff, so they can guess pretty well what the summoned entity would want (widest range of relatively safe summoning, no chance of getting free or cheap labor)
* Druids and rangers have an advantage summoning things with a "nature" connection (limited range of summoning if you want free or cheap labor, high danger in summoning outside your comfort zone)
* Warlocks and clerics get good deals from entities connected to their patrons/gods (limited range of summoning if you want free or cheap labor, high danger in summoning outside your comfort zone)
* Sorcerers have an advantage on things related to their origin (chaos sorcerers get advantage at random), and
* Artificers might have an aptitude for summoned constructs

This keeps summoning "dangerous" (a goal for a couple of editions) as you might not get the deal (in which case the entity is free to do as it pleases for the duration of the spell), it avoids "the angel is summoned to burn down the orphanage" (bad deal), and one player isn't hogging the turn, since it isn't the summoner commanding the entity, it is just an NPC that the DM is running who happens to be supporting the party.