Superhero RPG

[Umbran]

I actually think that the scenario you describe is pretty do-able in M&M, but I apologize if I'm reading you out of context.

Actually, you are answering my question quite nicely, thank you. However, you do seem to be denting of Krolik's contention that lesser threats are still valid. Assuming your scenario is correct (and I've no reason to think otherwise), this bunch of lesser threats really isn't much of a threat at all. While he might get a bit dinged up, the expectation is that he's going to deal with the situation in short order.

Admittedly, I am generalizing from a single example, but I chose Cap because he's pretty simple and straightforward. I would expect that while there would be many differences, most heroes of the same power level will have ability to deal on the same order as Cap's. We could engineer a way that there's a real credible threat there (using cover , taking advantage of specific vulnerabilities, and such), but in the generic scenario, we'd expect the PL 10 to plow through the PL 5s.

 

[Dr. Confoundo]

Regarding Mutants & Masterminds, let me be another to vote for 'Your M&M GM isn't giving out enough Hero Points'. You should also be getting them for role-playing, doing cool stuff, etc. If you are having to save them for only the most absolutely imperative of moments, you aren't getting enough of them.

 

[takyris]

I'm not speaking from enough experience to say concretely, but I think that it might be less a question of one PL10 easily taking on a bunch of PL5s and more a question of one PL10 easily taking on a bunch of minions. If those PL5s were heroic characters, then the hero wouldn't be able to:

- Use Takedown attack more than once per round
- Take 10 on an attack
- Automatically knock out anyone he hit, since the opponents would have to be whittled down, just like the hero

I still think that the hero in question would take down 12 PL5 opponents, but it'd be a much closer fight, and by no means guaranteed.

(And yes, when the opponents use saves beyond Toughness for their attacks, the fight gets a lot more dangerous. Give three of those 12 PL5s a Nausea-inducing weapon (Fortitude), another three a Stun-blast (Will), another three concussion grenades (Area, Reflex), and leave the last three with assault rifles but give them Autofire (adds damage based on margin of success on the hit), and our hero has even odds at best, even if all those attacks are limited to DC 15 on the save (or DC20 for the Toughness save).)

 

[Dr. Confoundo]

I remember reading the Civil War issue in question - those SHIELD agents should have been treated as mooks/minions. Almost anyone other than named villians should be mooks - zombies, vampire spawn, Viper Agents, robot troopers, etc.

 

[Krolik]

Actually, you are answering my question quite nicely, thank you. However, you do seem to be denting of Krolik's contention that lesser threats are still valid.

In the original post you replied to about this I was specifically referring to lesser Damage being more useful in M&M then in HERO, not lesser foes. You then went on to say that, IYO, Cap is impervious to it. My reply was that Cap will probably not get hit by these lesser foes but he's not guaranteed to be immune to the Damage they do if he does get hit. Bullseye can be shooting a blaster pistol just as easily as Joe Thug. The Damage threat will be about the same whereas the to-hit threat is actually much different between them. Joe Thug is probably only going to be able to hit Cap on a roll of 20. Bullseye will probably hit Cap on a roll of 12+.

 

[Mallus]

You should also be getting them for role-playing, doing cool stuff, etc.

One of the guys I game with used a Hero Point to "attack the Nile". As in the river. Itself.

It lost, BTW (GM rolled a "1" on the save). Parted like a Red Sea, it did, exposing the supervillain who was hiding in the river bed.

 

[Mallus]

I still think that the hero in question would take down 12 PL5 opponents, but it'd be a much closer fight, and by no means guaranteed.

That's still dependent on having PL5 opponents with an optimized array of attacks/attack types vs. a hero without a comparably broad set of defenses.

Good point about minions, BTW. PL5 opponents aren't mooks.

 

[Umbran]

In the original post you replied to about this I was specifically referring to lesser Damage being more useful in M&M then in HERO, not lesser foes. You then went on to say that, IYO, Cap is impervious to it.

Okay, hold up here. We are getting deep into Miscommunication Land.

The words you used, specifically were, "Part of the beauty of M&M's damage system is that lesser threats are still valid against a foe...".

Now, maybe "threat" has a very specific meaning in M&M of which I'm unaware. To me, the threat is not the gun, but he whole package - the threat is the villain or foe overall. So, a mook with a gun is a lesser threat, but Bullseye with that very same weapon is not "lesser" by any stretch of my imagination.

Also, I now understand that "impervious" has a very specific meaning within M&M. I was unaware of that when I spoke, and I didn't mean it in the game's specific sense. I meant it in the generic sense of "overall, however I manage to do it, I'm not taking damage in this encounter".

Let me phrase it in the common tongue of D&D - I'm not familiar with the system, and I'm trying to figure out at what point the lower PL foes are a reasonably challenging encounter for the higher PL hero. If a normal guy on the street with a pistol is still an issue for what the system would make for Captain America, that's a very different game from having to use a dozen or more trained soldiers to challenge Cap.

Now, however, I also see the game has a mechanical differentiation for "mooks" - the term I have seen used is "minions", and that, at least in genre terms, I can understand is part of the difference.

I ask because I've played several supers games - and there's a range. In the old "faserip" Marvel Superheroes, or other games designed to emulate most comic book heroes, there's a wide range of power, and Captain America can take on a dozen soldiers without much issue at all. At the other end, there's Godlike - where a common soldier with a rifle may still be rather deadly to the more powerful heroes the system will produce.

 

[Jim Hague]

Let me phrase it in the common tongue of D&D - I'm not familiar with the system, and I'm trying to figure out at what point the lower PL foes are a reasonably challenging encounter for the higher PL hero. If a normal guy on the street with a pistol is still an issue for what the system would make for Captain America, that's a very different game from having to use a dozen or more trained soldiers to challenge Cap.

Now, however, I also see the game has a mechanical differentiation for "mooks" - the term I have seen used is "minions", and that, at least in genre terms, I can understand is part of the difference.

Minions are in fact treated differently - a singe hit takes one out, no matter what their Power Level. In that, someone like Cap could use Takedown Attack to mow through the horde of nameless goons, or simply Take 10 and not have to roll at all.

I ask because I've played several supers games - and there's a range. In the old "faserip" Marvel Superheroes, or other games designed to emulate most comic book heroes, there's a wide range of power, and Captain America can take on a dozen soldiers without much issue at all. At the other end, there's Godlike - where a common soldier with a rifle may still be rather deadly to the more powerful heroes the system will produce.

Low-powered Minions (like the PL 5 Soldier) typically have to use tricks like Combined Fire to present a serious threat to PCs of PL 10 or so, due to either high Defense, Toughness, or both. I've seen several writeups of Cap on the Think Tank, and generally he's presented with a Toughness to Defense trade-off, representing a lack of superhuman durability in favor of being the guy you can't hit. Regardless, if you've got enough guys concentrating on a single target, it's likely they'll hit, and possibly do damage. In the cas eof the fight in question, I'd say Cap probably did a combination of Take 10 (for Minions) and Defenseive attack - the SHIELD guys didn't strike me as being all that competent, relatively speaking, thus Cap could just rely on his fighting skill and have a good chance of hitting them for the takedown.

 

[Mallus]

Let me phrase it in the common tongue of D&D - I'm not familiar with the system, and I'm trying to figure out at what point the lower PL foes are a reasonably challenging encounter for the higher PL hero.

The thing is, you really can't just look at PL, you have to match specific attack modes with specific defenses.

With M&M, its possible for a much lower PL NPC's, or even a minions, to challenge a higher PL PC. Possible in a way it's just not in D&D.

I ask because I've played several supers games - and there's a range. In the old "faserip" Marvel Superheroes, or other games designed to emulate most comic book heroes, there's a wide range of power, and Captain America can take on a dozen soldiers without much issue at all. At the other end, there's Godlike - where a common soldier with a rifle may still be rather deadly to the more powerful heroes the system will produce.

You can find that same range in my three-person M&M group...

A squad of machine-gun wielding soldiers could shoot the brick all day to no effect, while he punched the ghost out of them. Whereas the same squad would represent a serious threat to my guy --because he'd eventually out of Hero Points.

Of course, my guy could conjure up a pyramid out of thin air and drop it on their heads, but that's another story...