Superhero RPG

[Dr. Confoundo]

One of the guys I game with used a Hero Point to "attack the Nile". As in the river. Itself.

It lost, BTW (GM rolled a "1" on the save). Parted like a Red Sea, it did, exposing the supervillain who was hiding in the river bed.

And oddly enough, I can come up with probably half a dozen different power sets/character backgrounds where 'Attack the Nile' is a perfectly valid choice of tactics.

 

[Krolik]

The words you used, specifically were, "Part of the beauty of M&M's damage system is that lesser threats are still valid against a foe...".

Now, maybe "threat" has a very specific meaning in M&M of which I'm unaware. To me, the threat is not the gun, but he whole package - the threat is the villain or foe overall. So, a mook with a gun is a lesser threat, but Bullseye with that very same weapon is not "lesser" by any stretch of my imagination.

The purpose of the paragraph was to convey that M&M has a wider threat range from Damage. Someone using a +5 Damage attack can be as much of a threat as someone using a +10 Damage attack depending on how well the saver rolls. Unlike HERO, and many other games, there is no minimum Damage Threshold in M&M. A Captain America in HERO built with a 20 PD and +3 Armor from his costume is effectively immune to all attacks of 7d6 or less. In M&M a Captain America built with an 11 Toughness from CON, Feats, and armored costume is still subject to making a Damage Save against even the +1 Damage brass knuckles worn by a normal person. Of course the odds are very good that Cap will succeed in such a Save attempt but there would still be a chance for failure.

Let me phrase it in the common tongue of D&D - I'm not familiar with the system, and I'm trying to figure out at what point the lower PL foes are a reasonably challenging encounter for the higher PL hero. If a normal guy on the street with a pistol is still an issue for what the system would make for Captain America, that's a very different game from having to use a dozen or more trained soldiers to challenge Cap.

Here's the deal with Cap and some normal guy on the street. In my game Cap is PL 12 and has a 23 Defense and 11 Toughness. He can have a higher Defense by using Defensive Attack but there's no need for this example.

A PL 2 normal thug on the street would need to roll a natural 20 to even hit Cap with the shot, assuming Cap wasn't surprised. Once the hit has been made Cap would then get a chance to Deflect the bullet with his shield. Cap has +13 Deflect with the shield. At this point Cap would roll 1d20 and add 13. The thug would roll 1d20 and add 1. If Cap's roll was higher then the thug's the bullet bounces off Cap's shield. If Cap's roll is lower the shield missed and the bullet hits him. At that point Cap would get a Toughness Save to try and roll out of the way of the Damage. The bullet does +3 Damage for a DC of 18. Cap rolls 1d20 and adds his 11 Toughness to the roll. If he rolls a total of 18 or higher the bullet grazes off his chainmail costume for no injury. If Cap rolls 14-17 he takes a Bruise: the bullet is stopped by the chainmail but causes him some pain. If Cap rolls less then 14 he is Bruised and Stunned. The thug got in a lucky shot. The bullet grazes off of Cap's temple and Stuns him for 1 Round. The Damage isn't serious but Cap will lose his action this Round unless he spends a Hero Point to shake-off the unlucky Stunned shot. Even if Cap chooses to not spend the Hero Point and just lose the 1 Round of action the thug would still need to roll a 15+ to even be able to shoot the Stunned Cap again.

So in that example Cap would need an incredibly lucky group of rolls against him for the thug to have even the slightest chance of injuring, let alone defeating him. If Cap doesn't have access to the shield his odds of being injured increase but the thug still needs to roll the 20 to hit and Cap still needs to miss a fairly simple Toughness Save.

 

[Acid_crash]

Well its no surprise that Mutants and Masterminds would be nominated most on these boards, as these are so biased towards d20 that most others aren't even considered.

So, beyond all these 'another vote for M&M' and 'M&M2e' is the way to go, please look at Wild Talents before you look at another game.

Not only will you get a robust game with all the versatility that Mutants and Masterminds can provide, you also get a really cool game engine that isn't hampered by a plethora of feats and basic structured powers that M&M has, and you get a game engine that quite literally has each and every single player involved ALL THE TIME.

If you are tired of rolling initiative and having everybody think tactically like that, and instead want all your players involved more, then Wild Talents is the way to go. It takes M&M and quite literally shows it how to do supers 'right.'

If you want something different than d20, then look at Wild Talents.

And I am saying all this about Wild Talents because it is a superior game, and I like M&M. A lot. It does what it does okay, but it's not the greatest super hero game on the market, and there are some things it does NOT do well at all.

 

[Jim Hague]

Well its no surprise that Mutants and Masterminds would be nominated most on these boards, as these are so biased towards d20 that most others aren't even considered.

Well, they are messageboards primarily concerned with d20 games, so that's not surprising...

So, beyond all these 'another vote for M&M' and 'M&M2e' is the way to go, please look at Wild Talents before you look at another game.

Wild Talents is an excellent game, yes, and worth picking up for Ken Hite's worldbuilding article alone.

Not only will you get a robust game with all the versatility that Mutants and Masterminds can provide, you also get a really cool game engine that isn't hampered by a plethora of feats and basic structured powers that M&M has, and you get a game engine that quite literally has each and every single player involved ALL THE TIME.

Pure fabrication here. The game engine has nothing to do with players being involved - only the GM and players do that. It's also different from MnM...but despite your hyperbole to the contrary, not better. Just different.

If you are tired of rolling initiative and having everybody think tactically like that, and instead want all your players involved more, then Wild Talents is the way to go. It takes M&M and quite literally shows it how to do supers 'right.'

Again, pure fabrication. You have your opinion, clearly, but please don't come on and try to compare apples and oranges, let alone in the manner you're doing it in. Wild Talents and MnM have entirely different design goals, and while there's some crossover...they aren't even meant to be the same kind of game. Wild Talents has plenty of tactical thinking (being based on the Godlike ORE), and there are things is doesn't do well at all.

If you want something different than d20, then look at Wild Talents.

Certainly. And pick up Truth and Justice, too. They're all good games.

And I am saying all this about Wild Talents because it is a superior game, and I like M&M. A lot. It does what it does okay, but it's not the greatest super hero game on the market, and there are some things it does NOT do well at all.

And there are things Wild Talents is terrible at. It all depends on what you're trying to do with whatever game you pick up.

 

[Set]

The words you used, specifically were, "Part of the beauty of M&M's damage system is that lesser threats are still valid against a foe...".

Both a strength *and* a weakness, IMO, is the d20 roll damage system. At exactly equal PL, you'll have a 50% chance of inflicting a wounded condition, and a smaller chance of wiping the target out completely. If the minion is half the PL, he's going to have a smaller chance, but on a d20 roll, he's still got the chance to roll well, or the high PL foe has a chance of rolling crappy to resist gaining a wound. It is *possible* for a PL 5 minion to wipe out a PL 10 hero, if the hero just blows his roll.

Which is where Hero Points come in, and the hero blows one to get a reroll, rather than be taken out by a mere minion and a bad dice roll. The Hero Point lets the hero be 'heroic' despite his dice wanting him dead (or at least humiliated).

Where minions have some powerful tools at their disposal is with the Combined Attack and Aid Other actions. Six minions with PL 4 attacks (heavy pistols) simply shouldn't be able to hurt someone with Impervious Toughness 5. But if they all concentrate their fire and do a Combined Attack, each one that hits can add +2 damage to the base attack (of +4). If three hit, the attack does 4 damage, +2 for the second hit and +2 more for the third hit, for a total of +8 damage, enough to penetrate the characters Impervious Toughness!

 

[Dr. Confoundo]

Both a strength *and* a weakness, IMO, is the d20 roll damage system. At exactly equal PL, you'll have a 50% chance of inflicting a wounded condition, and a smaller chance of wiping the target out completely. If the minion is half the PL, he's going to have a smaller chance, but on a d20 roll, he's still got the chance to roll well, or the high PL foe has a chance of rolling crappy to resist gaining a wound. It is *possible* for a PL 5 minion to wipe out a PL 10 hero, if the hero just blows his roll.

My group has been having a great time using the Playing Cards option detailed in the Masterminds Manual: Before play, get two decks of standard playing cards, toss out all face cards, and shuffle them together... this leaves you with an 80 card deck of 1-10. Red cards are face value, black cards are value +10. (Thus, a 10 of Hearts is a '10', while a 10 of Clubs is a '20'). Each player gets a hand of five cards that they use for any rolls they need to make; once they work through their hand, they draw five new cards, or they can spend a Hero Point to dump their current hand and draw five more.

This has really changed the way that the game plays - you won't have to worry about getting one-shotted by a mook, because you won't randomly roll a '1' at the most inopportune moments. Alternately, when you really need to put down the big boss, you can use a high-card, and insure that you hit him.

 

[Krolik]

It is *possible* for a PL 5 minion to wipe out a PL 10 hero, if the hero just blows his roll.

It depends on the character in question. Using the non-Trade-Off averages the worst a PL 10 character could suffer from a PL 5 is a Stunned/Bruised result: A DC 20 attack versus a Toughness Save roll of 1 with a +10 Toughness would result in a Stunned/Bruised effect. I'm not sure I would consider being Stunned the same as being wiped out. The PL 5 minion will get a second attack at the hero before the Stunned wears off, assuming the hero didn't use a Hero Point, but even after being hit once and being Stunned the hero would still have a 50% chance of not being injured by the second attack.

Where minions have some powerful tools at their disposal is with the Combined Attack and Aid Other actions. Six minions with PL 4 attacks (heavy pistols) simply shouldn't be able to hurt someone with Impervious Toughness 5. But if they all concentrate their fire and do a Combined Attack, each one that hits can add +2 damage to the base attack (of +4). If three hit, the attack does 4 damage, +2 for the second hit and +2 more for the third hit, for a total of +8 damage, enough to penetrate the characters Impervious Toughness!

Combined Attack is good for the heroes teaming up on the Juggernaut types of villains too.

 

[Greg K]

Combined Attack is good for the heroes teaming up on the Juggernaut types of villains too.

I was thinking of the Teen Titans for Trigon

 

[Fedifensor]

No. I'm saying you're playing at 4E power levels, which have nothing to do with 5E Champions.

That's a really odd statement, since Champions is part of the HERO system, which bills itself as a "gamer's toolkit". In fact, reading through the Champions genre book, characters like Nighthawk are nothing more than example characters that can be built. The Champions book describes every type of superhero play, from pulp-era and Golden Age to Galactic Champions. There is, quite simply, no set power level for the system.

 

[Krolik]

That's a really odd statement, since Champions is part of the HERO system, which bills itself as a "gamer's toolkit". In fact, reading through the Champions genre book, characters like Nighthawk are nothing more than example characters that can be built. The Champions book describes every type of superhero play, from pulp-era and Golden Age to Galactic Champions. There is, quite simply, no set power level for the system.

Hero System 5th Edition Revised, Character Abilities Guidelines Table on page 28, Standard Superhero subset clearly lists the suggested guidelines. These guidelines are what the over 30 books in the Champions series seem to follow.

The purpose of this thread was to give information about superhero games. If someone were to pick up the 5E Champions book those are the guidelines they would see displayed. They can certainly go against the suggestions and use whatever guidelines they wish in their Champions game, just as you can in any superhero game, but the 5E guidelines are what's presented to the gaming public. It's no one's but Hero Games' fault that the 5E power level guidelines don't match the 4E and earlier examples.