Surprise round question

[Ovinomancer]

Some element of the action (or movement) that begins combat wakes them up. Once they are no longer asleep, they no longer have the condition.



This line of reasoning runs counter to my experience of sleep and awareness. When I'm asleep, although my eyes are nearly always shut, my ears do not close up. They pick up any noise around me just as if I had been awake and send information to my brain about those noises. But I'm aware of none of this. If you asked me later what sort of noises I heard during the night I wouldn't be able to tell you because I would have no recollection of having heard them. My subconscious brain is keeping track, however, and if it picks up anything it considers alarming, it wakes me up, and only then do I become aware of what's going on around me.



The spell explicitly imposes magical sleep. Combat has already started when creatures are affected, however, because the casting of the spell itself triggers combat if it hasn't started already. I would attribute that the sleep can only be ended for the spell's duration by the enchanted creatures taking damage or being shaken or slapped awake to the sleep's magical nature, but I would certainly allow either of those events to awaken those affected by mundane sleep as well.

My issue with this is the fluctuation between 'unconscious and cannot perceive anything' and 'something in the environment wakes them up'. Presumably, they perceive this something? The inconsistency here is one of expectation: can I rely on the game world to perform as expected. To expand with an example, if an NPC thief sneaks into a sleeping PC's room, according to your previous points the thief can burgle to his hearts content and not wake the PC. But, if the PC discovers the thief, and sneaks into the thief's lair while the thief is asleep, and then attacks the thief in his sleep, suddenly, despite any training or care, the PC makes a noise, or flashes moonlight, or does something that awakens the thief prior to the attack. The double standard here would be jarring to me. You can steal or do anything else without a check or chance of awakening a victim so long as you do not attack. Attacking automatically means that the sleeping target awakens fully.

 

[Hriston]

On the subject of whether sleep imposes the Unconscious condition:

Q: "@JeremyECrawford Elf trait Trance implies non-elves are less than semiconscious when asleep. Does sleep impose the Unconscious condition?"

Q: "To clarify, asking about mundane sleep, not magical slumber caused by sleep spell. Is it intended for mundane sleep to impose Unconscious?"

A: "A sleeping character is unconscious. This is mentioned in "Using and Tracking Conditions" (DMG, 248). #DnD"

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/854021939395833857

 

[Ovinomancer]

On the subject of whether sleep imposes the Unconscious condition:

Q: "@JeremyECrawford Elf trait Trance implies non-elves are less than semiconscious when asleep. Does sleep impose the Unconscious condition?"

Q: "To clarify, asking about mundane sleep, not magical slumber caused by sleep spell. Is it intended for mundane sleep to impose Unconscious?"

A: "A sleeping character is unconscious. This is mentioned in "Using and Tracking Conditions" (DMG, 248). #DnD"

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/854021939395833857

This doesn't support your reasoning for how the unconscious condition ends at initiative, though.

 

[Hriston]

This doesn't support your reasoning for how the unconscious condition ends at initiative, though.

I didn't say it did.

What it supports is my use of the Unconscious condition for sleeping creatures, which means that, in the game, sleeping creatures are unaware of their surroundings. What it also means is that whatever real-world state of consciousness to which we attribute "awareness of surroundings", it does not include the altered state of consciousness we call sleep.

 

[Ovinomancer]

I didn't say it did.

What it supports is my use of the Unconscious condition for sleeping creatures, which means that, in the game, sleeping creatures are unaware of their surroundings. What it also means is that whatever real-world state of consciousness to which we attribute "awareness of surroundings", it does not include the altered state of consciousness we call sleep.

Great, I had already accepted this logic in my earlier questions, to which you responded that something in the environment awakened the sleeper prior to hostilities (and therefor initiative). As you've now conclusively ruled this out as possible (unaware of surroundings doesn't have a 'unless you're rolling initiative' rider), I'm eager to hear your resolution of the conundrum.

Again, the point of this question is to suss out how a player can reliably anticipate such events in your games. As it stands, your ruling is against the logic you've presented for other rulings, and vice versa. I'm fine with whatever logic you want to pick, but I'd like them to match. If, instead, you're just standing on a 'I don't think it's fair to have targets be asleep at the beginning of a fight', then that's great, too, but come out and state that you're not basing it on a logical supposition and are, instead, framing your game on arbitrary principles (nothing wrong with that, either, so long as their clearly stated for players to understand beforehand).

 

[Hriston]

Great, I had already accepted this logic in my earlier questions, to which you responded that something in the environment awakened the sleeper prior to hostilities (and therefor initiative). As you've now conclusively ruled this out as possible (unaware of surroundings doesn't have a 'unless you're rolling initiative' rider), I'm eager to hear your resolution of the conundrum.

Again, the point of this question is to suss out how a player can reliably anticipate such events in your games. As it stands, your ruling is against the logic you've presented for other rulings, and vice versa. I'm fine with whatever logic you want to pick, but I'd like them to match. If, instead, you're just standing on a 'I don't think it's fair to have targets be asleep at the beginning of a fight', then that's great, too, but come out and state that you're not basing it on a logical supposition and are, instead, framing your game on arbitrary principles (nothing wrong with that, either, so long as their clearly stated for players to understand beforehand).

It's very simple. You can hear things in your sleep. All your senses gather information about your environment when you're asleep. But you aren't aware of those things in the game-sense that you notice, detect, or perceive them. To do so, you would need not only to sense them but to do so consciously. DMG, p 248 says it perfectly. Sleep is a state "that lacks consciousness".

Things you sense without consciousness can still wake you up. The DM determines when. I always tell my players the types of circumstances that will result in a creature waking up. It's a short, non-comprehensive list of things which I posted up-thread to which I'd add those things described in the sleep spell as ending magical slumber. It's non-comprehensive because there are always situations that require DM adjudication, but it gives a player a good idea of what sort of things will reliably awaken a sleeping creature.

Also, I take issue with your statement that I have creatures wake up "prior to hostilities". I've consistently stated that sleeping creatures in my games wake up simultaneously with the start of combat, not before, but you and others continue to act as if I've said that something wakes them up before anything has happened. This is not true. In my games, the start of combat is generally a noticeable event.

 

[Maxperson]

On the subject of whether sleep imposes the Unconscious condition:

Q: "@JeremyECrawford Elf trait Trance implies non-elves are less than semiconscious when asleep. Does sleep impose the Unconscious condition?"

Q: "To clarify, asking about mundane sleep, not magical slumber caused by sleep spell. Is it intended for mundane sleep to impose Unconscious?"

A: "A sleeping character is unconscious. This is mentioned in "Using and Tracking Conditions" (DMG, 248). #DnD"

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/854021939395833857

Thanks for that, but it really doesn't resolve anything. The issue here isn't whether a sleeping character is defined as unconscious in the game. The issue is that the game simplifies unconscious and applies it to sleep inappropriately. The game doesn't take the fact that there are different types of unconscious. Sleep is very different from someone who has been knocked out, and their definition of unconscious is the type that applies to someone who is knocked out.

 

[Maxperson]

I didn't say it did.

What it supports is my use of the Unconscious condition for sleeping creatures, which means that, in the game, sleeping creatures are unaware of their surroundings. What it also means is that whatever real-world state of consciousness to which we attribute "awareness of surroundings", it does not include the altered state of consciousness we call sleep.

Right. The game ruling is wrong like I have been saying in this thread.

 

[Ovinomancer]

It's very simple. You can hear things in your sleep. All your senses gather information about your environment when you're asleep. But you aren't aware of those things in the game-sense that you notice, detect, or perceive them. To do so, you would need not only to sense them but to do so consciously. DMG, p 248 says it perfectly. Sleep is a state "that lacks consciousness".

Things you sense without consciousness can still wake you up. The DM determines when. I always tell my players the types of circumstances that will result in a creature waking up. It's a short, non-comprehensive list of things which I posted up-thread to which I'd add those things described in the sleep spell as ending magical slumber. It's non-comprehensive because there are always situations that require DM adjudication, but it gives a player a good idea of what sort of things will reliably awaken a sleeping creature.

Then you're not going with the Unconscious condition, which clearly states that Unconscious creatures are unaware of their surroundings? I'm confused, which rules stance are you taking, here?

Also, I take issue with your statement that I have creatures wake up "prior to hostilities". I've consistently stated that sleeping creatures in my games wake up simultaneously with the start of combat, not before, but you and others continue to act as if I've said that something wakes them up before anything has happened. This is not true. In my games, the start of combat is generally a noticeable event.

The reason for this is that you insist that it's impossible to stab a sleeping creature -- they will always be awake for the stabbing attempt. Given that nothing prior to the stabbing awakens the creatures (a stealthy enemy can approach without awakening), then it's the very act of stabbing that seems to be the trigger for the awakening. I'm fairly certain that you rule that hostilities start with the declaration of the stabbing, correct? Declaration isn't execution, that occurs only on the player's turn, but you insist that the target will be awake prior to the execution of the stabbing, so, therefore, the target awakens before hostilities actually occur.

I'm sensing there's some strange metaconcept you're adhering to with 'start of combat' here, but you haven't clearly explained it. What is the trigger for a stealthy assassin stabbing a victim that triggers awakening at the 'start of combat?' It can no longer be the sound of drawn dagger or moonlight glinting off a blade, as you've clearly stated that you use the unconscious condition for sleeping creatures, and that makes them unaware of such things.

 

[Maxperson]

It's very simple. You can hear things in your sleep. All your senses gather information about your environment when you're asleep. But you aren't aware of those things in the game-sense that you notice, detect, or perceive them. To do so, you would need not only to sense them but to do so consciously. DMG, p 248 says it perfectly. Sleep is a state "that lacks consciousness".

Things you sense without consciousness can still wake you up. The DM determines when. I always tell my players the types of circumstances that will result in a creature waking up. It's a short, non-comprehensive list of things which I posted up-thread to which I'd add those things described in the sleep spell as ending magical slumber. It's non-comprehensive because there are always situations that require DM adjudication, but it gives a player a good idea of what sort of things will reliably awaken a sleeping creature.

You realize that if you equate sleep unconscious with knocked out unconscious, which you do since you are arguing that they are both unconscious and even went to the devs for confirmation, and if you allow loud noises to wake sleepers, you are arguing that a loud noise wakes up PCs who have been knocked out due to damage. Who needs healing anymore. I'd just carry a cow bell around for when companions are reduced to 0.