Surprise round question

[Arial Black]

To home in on the problem:-

Something in the game world can wake the sleeper (like being stabbed, a knife hitting your pillow, a noise), but nothing the players do around the table can possibly awaken the sleeper (the DM turning to the surprise rules, the DM asking for initiative rolls, the player rolling an attack) unless that causes something in the game world which could awaken the sleeper.

Further, neither the player nor the character merely thinking about attacking can possibly awaken the sleeper. Intending to attack, declaring that you are stabbing someone may very well cause the DM to have initiative rolled and for the creatures to take Turns in the Combat Round, but none of that can possibly awaken the sleeper because nothing has actually happened in the game world (yet) to cause a sleeping creature to awake.

The problem we are having with Hriston's position is that he is saying that the DM's decision to begin combat by rolling initiative and starting the combat round is what wakes the sleeper, and that is just not possible!

 

[nswanson27]

To home in on the problem:-

Something in the game world can wake the sleeper (like being stabbed, a knife hitting your pillow, a noise), but nothing the players do around the table can possibly awaken the sleeper (the DM turning to the surprise rules, the DM asking for initiative rolls, the player rolling an attack) unless that causes something in the game world which could awaken the sleeper.

Further, neither the player nor the character merely thinking about attacking can possibly awaken the sleeper. Intending to attack, declaring that you are stabbing someone may very well cause the DM to have initiative rolled and for the creatures to take Turns in the Combat Round, but none of that can possibly awaken the sleeper because nothing has actually happened in the game world (yet) to cause a sleeping creature to awake.

The problem we are having with Hriston's position is that he is saying that the DM's decision to begin combat by rolling initiative and starting the combat round is what wakes the sleeper, and that is just not possible!

Yeah this is one of the few places where the 5e rules falls down, and there is no logical remedy apart from changing the rules. Beating initiative is a free weapon of warning randomly popping into existence? Um, no.

 

[Arial Black]

On the topic of different kinds of 'unconscious' and how 5E treats them all the same...

Keep 'normal sleep' type of unconscious the same as 'knocked out' type in terms of the game condition, but allow different things to end that condition.

So loud noises can end the unconscious condition caused by normal sleep but not end the unconscious condition caused by being knocked out.

The condition is the same, but what causes and ends that condition differ.

 

[Hriston]

Thanks for that, but it really doesn't resolve anything. The issue here isn't whether a sleeping character is defined as unconscious in the game. The issue is that the game simplifies unconscious and applies it to sleep inappropriately.

Whether it's appropriate is a matter of opinion. To me, it's desirable that the game simplifies all the various states of human awareness/consciousness into two categories: consciousness (the usual state of affairs under which, for example, calling for a Perception check may be appropriate, and of which the semiconsciousness of Trance is a subcategory) and unconsciousness (including all states such as sleep that "lack consciousness" and under which it would be inappropriate to call for a Perception check because whatever low level of consciousness that may be present in these states is too low to matter). This makes for an enjoyable game that's easy to adjudicate.

The game doesn't take the fact that there are different types of unconscious. Sleep is very different from someone who has been knocked out, and their definition of unconscious is the type that applies to someone who is knocked out.

It has been clarified that the Unconscious condition is intended to apply to all states of awareness that "lack consciousness", including sleep.

 

[Maxperson]

Whether it's appropriate is a matter of opinion. To me, it's desirable that the game simplifies all the various states of human awareness/consciousness into two categories: consciousness (the usual state of affairs under which, for example, calling for a Perception check may be appropriate, and of which the semiconsciousness of Trance is a subcategory) and unconsciousness (including all states such as sleep that "lack consciousness" and under which it would be inappropriate to call for a Perception check because whatever low level of consciousness that may be present in these states is too low to matter). This makes for an enjoyable game that's easy to adjudicate.

It has been clarified that the Unconscious condition is intended to apply to all states of awareness that "lack consciousness", including sleep.

That's fine, but if you then play by the rules, it's impossible to wake a sleeping PC or NPC up without some sort of healing or waiting until they wake up naturally. Noise, attacks, initiative, etc. don't wake up unconscious beings in 5e.

 

[Hriston]

Then you're not going with the Unconscious condition, which clearly states that Unconscious creatures are unaware of their surroundings? I'm confused, which rules stance are you taking, here?

A sleeping creature is unaware of its surroundings, but it doesn't follow that its senses have ceased to function or that there's anything physiologically different about its senses when it's asleep. What "unaware of its surroundings" means in this case is that it isn't consciously aware of what its senses are nevertheless picking up. Sleeping creatures are not blind, deaf, et cetera. They are unconscious. Conversely, hearing (or sensing in some other way) is not awareness if it lacks consciousness.

The reason for this is that you insist that it's impossible to stab a sleeping creature -- they will always be awake for the stabbing attempt. Given that nothing prior to the stabbing awakens the creatures (a stealthy enemy can approach without awakening), then it's the very act of stabbing that seems to be the trigger for the awakening.

There's a lot that happens between the assassin standing 5 feet away from his or her victim, not attacking, and the dagger blade actually stabbing through the victim's flesh. I would place the trigger at the beginning of this transitional period, which I would consider part of the attack, so the trigger happens before the attack has been completed.

I'm fairly certain that you rule that hostilities start with the declaration of the stabbing, correct? Declaration isn't execution, that occurs only on the player's turn, but you insist that the target will be awake prior to the execution of the stabbing, so, therefore, the target awakens before hostilities actually occur.

No. In my games, a declaration by a player at the table to attack another creature, like any other action-declaration, introduces into the fiction that the player's character is actually beginning to undertake said attack. The resolution of the attack (or other action) is what must wait for the player's "turn". So we have an attack-declaration from the player, which is what the player has said that his or her character is trying to do in the fiction. Because it's an attack, the action must be resolved in combat rounds, so we then begin combat, at which point the attack and any other simultaneous actions or counter-actions can be resolved.

I'm sensing there's some strange metaconcept you're adhering to with 'start of combat' here, but you haven't clearly explained it.

It's the commencement (but not the resolution) of the action that combat rounds were entered to resolve. Most commonly, it's that one side begins to attack the other. When I DM, if it's the monsters attacking the PCs, I describe the monsters beginning their attack in some way that makes it obvious to the players (and their characters) that battle is in the process of erupting. On the other hand, if (one of) the players has/have declared an action that needs to be resolved in combat, then that action is considered to be in progress, and even if the player(s) later change(s) his/her/their mind(s) about what to do on his/her/their actual first turn(s) in combat, the original declared action is considered to have been started by the PC(s) to the extent that any actions taken by the other side are in reaction to it. Then I call for initiative. That's the start of combat.

What is the trigger for a stealthy assassin stabbing a victim that triggers awakening at the 'start of combat?' It can no longer be the sound of drawn dagger or moonlight glinting off a blade, as you've clearly stated that you use the unconscious condition for sleeping creatures, and that makes them unaware of such things.

They don't have to be conscious/aware of things to sense them and be awoken by them. Hearing/seeing, etc. is not awareness if it lacks consciousness.

 

[Maxperson]

A sleeping creature is unaware of its surroundings, but it doesn't follow that its senses have ceased to function or that there's anything physiologically different about its senses when it's asleep. What "unaware of its surroundings" means in this case is that it isn't consciously aware of what its senses are nevertheless picking up. Sleeping creatures are not blind, deaf, et cetera. They are unconscious. Conversely, hearing (or sensing in some other way) is not awareness if it lacks consciousness.

So you aren't playing by the game's definition of unconscious. Make up your mind man. You're confusing the hell out of me by insisting you are playing by the rules, and then post stuff like this that shows that you aren't playing by the rules.

 

[Hriston]

So you aren't playing by the game's definition of unconscious. Make up your mind man. You're confusing the hell out of me by insisting you are playing by the rules, and then post stuff like this that shows that you aren't playing by the rules.

By what part of "the game's definition of unconscious" am I not playing?

 

[Maxperson]

By what part of "the game's definition of unconscious" am I not playing?

A sleeping creature is unaware of its surroundings, but it doesn't follow that its senses have ceased to function or that there's anything physiologically different about its senses when it's asleep. What "unaware of its surroundings" means in this case is that it isn't consciously aware of what its senses are nevertheless picking up. Sleeping creatures are not blind, deaf, et cetera. They are unconscious. Conversely, hearing (or sensing in some other way) is not awareness if it lacks consciousness.

The bolded. None of the bolded affects unconscious individuals in 5e. If you are unconscious, none of your senses matters an iota. No amount of noise, smell, taste, touch, or sight will reverse unconsciousness. While it follows in real life that those things haven't ceased to function, in 5e they have indeed ceased to function until you wake up.

 

[Hriston]

A sleeping creature is unaware of its surroundings, but it doesn't follow that its senses have ceased to function or that there's anything physiologically different about its senses when it's asleep. What "unaware of its surroundings" means in this case is that it isn't consciously aware of what its senses are nevertheless picking up. Sleeping creatures are not blind, deaf, et cetera. They are unconscious. Conversely, hearing (or sensing in some other way) is not awareness if it lacks consciousness.

The bolded. None of the bolded affects unconscious individuals in 5e. If you are unconscious, none of your senses matters an iota. No amount of noise, smell, taste, touch, or sight will reverse unconsciousness. While it follows in real life that those things haven't ceased to function, in 5e they have indeed ceased to function until you wake up.

Please show me where in the 5e rulebooks it says that an unconscious creature doesn't have senses. I already know that it's unaware of its surroundings, but a lack of awareness is not the same as having no senses. For example, hearing without consciousness is not awareness.

Also, please tell me where it says that a sleeping creature can't be woken up by anything at all by which the DM decides it is awakened.