sword mage question !

[Caliban]

You're the one rationalizing what's essentially a free Weapon Focus feat. And that's fine. But your interpretation is not any more correct than mine is.

Not true. Mine actually is correct, and is supported by the rules. Your's is just some "ruleslawyer shenanigans" as someone in this thread called such things.

This is the internet, have an opinion and back it up. Don't be surprised when someone has a different opinion and backs it up. The world isn't full of robots eating vanilla ice cream.

You didn't actually back anything up. You just gave your view on how you want it to work, not how it does work. It's OK if that's the way you want to run it, but don't try to tell people that's the way it's actually intended to work, or somone will have to call "shenanigans" on you.

 

[Herschel]

I stated exactly why I interpret it to work the way it does and backed it up. If you can't handle it, that's a you problem. I look at it as a whole, you are looking at it as granular. It's two ways of looking at the same thing.

Admin here. Your post would be a lot more interesting - and coincidentally, not breaking EN World's rules about rudeness - if you had removed the second sentence. In the future, please reread your post a few times to make sure you aren't coming off as overly aggressive. ~ PCat

 

[junkielectric]

I seem to remember an earlier thread where someone mentioned that a swordmage built in the Character Builder and wielding a longsword had both +1 damage and +3 AC. I don't subscribe so I cant check that, but in my group we ran it with the extra damage and full warding and it didn't cause any problems.

This looks like if the warding is interrupted, that benefit goes away until you take a rest period (short or extended). So it matters not that changing from one to two and back are free actions, but the one hand warding is not MAINTAINED when you do so. So you are back at the +1 until you take a rest to re-establish your warding.

Also, the use of the word "maintain" seems to be more for flavor than rules based - its in the description, not the mechanical explanation. The wording is actually very clear, the only thing that makes it go away is falling unconscious. The bonus is based on what your hands are doing when it needs to be checked, not on what they were doing last round. Think about it, the swordmage isn't walking around with his sword out all the time, is he? So if hes walking down the corridor holding a torch and anything else besides his sword (a key, maybe? A rope and grapple?), and gets ambushed, drops the torch and pulls out his sword, does he not have his warding at all? Really?

While you are conscious and wielding either a light blade or a heavy blade, you MAINTAIN a field of magical force around you.

Using the same interpretation logic as you just used (if it goes down at any point, it stays down), that's how you should be playing it.

 

[Herschel]

I seem to remember an earlier thread where someone mentioned that a swordmage built in the Character Builder and wielding a longsword had both +1 damage and +3 AC. I don't subscribe so I cant check that, but in my group we ran it with the extra damage and full warding and it didn't cause any problems.



Also, the use of the word "maintain" seems to be more for flavor than rules based - its in the description, not the mechanical explanation. The wording is actually very clear, the only thing that makes it go away is falling unconscious. The bonus is based on what your hands are doing when it needs to be checked, not on what they were doing last round. Think about it, the swordmage isn't walking around with his sword out all the time, is he? So if hes walking down the corridor holding a torch and anything else besides his sword (a key, maybe? A rope and grapple?), and gets ambushed, drops the torch and pulls out his sword, does he not have his warding at all? Really?



Using the same interpretation logic as you just used (if it goes down at any point, it stays down), that's how you should be playing it.

In the character builder, if you switch the Long Sword to two-handed, you lose the bonus.

And maintain is a mechanical term. The debate is how one interprets maintain. The warding doesn't "go away" when you two-hand wield, but it certainly diminishes in effectiveness. The ruling I and others have made is that you need to re-establish the extra benefit.

Look at it this way. Heck look at the artwork for them if that helps: The swordmage "casts" his basic aura, but needs that free hand to cast, weave and maintain the extra shielding. When that hand is no longer free, that extra protection is interrupted and gone. It's a combat mechanic for balance.

In theory, a Swordmage should get no warding if his sword isn't out but you describe a non-combat bit and there's a natural separation in the way game play is set up between combat and non-combat situations. When you roll initiative, the combat stuff kicks in. This is to simplify game play and the fact it's non-combat doesn't interfere with combat balance. It's a bit wonky, but that's the way it is set up.

 

[Herschel]

He did back it up- with a quote from the FAQ.

Where did I say he didn't? We both explained how and why we rule the way we rule. That's the essense of debate. In the end, the ruling at the table is all a matter of perspective.

 

[Beckett]

Where did I say he didn't? We both explained how and why we rule the way we rule. That's the essense of debate. In the end, the ruling at the table is all a matter of perspective.

But your interpretation is not any more correct than mine is.

His interpretation is backed up by the FAQ posted by the company that publishes the game. Now, WotC has made mistakes before so I'm not saying that it is 100% certain that his is the way it should be done, but having the publishers weigh in on his side sure seems like it should make his interpretation more correct.

 

[junkielectric]

Thanks for checking the CB. However, I'm guessing that there is no way to tell from it that the warding doesn't come back up to full if you switch back to one hand?

I see where you are coming from, because when I first saw it the free action switching looked a lot like an exploit. But it really isn't a big deal, and won't unbalance anything. As for the "how", you can think of it the other way (a way which more closely follows the wording of the feature): the warding is a +1 tied to the swordmage wielding a sword. But if he has a hand free, he can use it to strengthen the warding up to a +3.

There are tons of in-combat examples I can come up with to support this: opening a door, helping an ally get up, drinking a potion, even the swordmage getting disarmed (actually, can you still do that in 4e?). All of those are things that make me think the warding was intended to fluctuate in strength without permanently (for the purposes of the encounter) staying down. And like I said, I see why the idea of the free action switching doesn't sit well with you, but it really isn't enough of a problem to need a different rules reading.

 

[Ketolos]

2Herschel: I just don't understand, why is it so big problem for you. Swordmage should have high AC. Only thing switching your hands does is +1 to dmg which isn't such a big deal. Look at it flavor-wise: you have to use your free hand to weave arcane energy around you. If you don't have free hand, you can't use it effectively enough. So what changes, when you don't have free hand - for example, you are opening doors and other stuff junkielectric mentioned.

You would penalize swordmage for drinking potion? Why? And if you don't wanna penalize him for this, why would you penalize him for holding swor in two hands?

 

[Herschel]

Look at it mechanically in reference to other characters if it helps. For example: that +2 bonus for the free hand is the same bonus as a heavy shield. You can't swing your long sword two-handed if you have a heavy shield either.

Swordmages are an Int-based class, which is a AC stat for light armor. Their AC is pretty comparable with other defenders in heavier armor and shields. Their flavor is as lightly armored, mobile defenders but mechanically maintaining the free hand keeps them on par with the other defenders.

The company that makes the game also makes the character builder. It does not support the switching hold option either.

I'm not penalizing the Swordmage, I'm adhering to the interpretation of the rule. Not giving a character a free weapon focus benefit is not a penalty.

 

[Nymrohd]

The rule is badly written. I can see why people would allow the bonus to be set at +3 unless you get hit by some immediate action right before or after you make a weapon attack using your blade 2h. I still don't like that ruling since I don't think it matches RAI (which is to transfer the AC-Damage balance of 1h+shield-2h to the swordmage without using a shield, or at least so I understand). I for one would house rule it so if you at any point in the round not have a hand free, you only gain a +1 bonus until the start of your next turn.