[Swordmage] Frigid Blade: One round or two?

[styker]

Two turns. The turn that it started adjancent to you and his next turn (because the power say "until the end of his next turn")

Sorry, i lost the "if the target starts it´s NEXT turn", so i agree with Rajaah. It one turn.

 

[mneme]

Is there any precedence for a power lasting two turns?

Yes. This happens all the time; there are a lot of self-buffs that last two turns (eg, "until the end of your next turn", so you can make your normal attack buffed for two turns, or spend an action point this turn and get an advantage on your attack next turn, depending).

Examples (minor action):

Allied Rythm
Agency of Chance
Chant of Accuracy
Cloak of Sound
Ghost Walk/Phase Shift
Song of Speed

etc, ad nausium

More examples (free action):

Dread Disappearance
Spider Scuttle
Dark Wings

Most such powers (that are -likely- to have an effect for two turns), btw, are minor action rather than free -- as free actions are usually triggered (and thus usually trigger on the attack this turn and give you a benefit for next turn). But it's really frequent that a minor action power will give you a benefit for both this turn and next turn, usually either helping your attacks or your movement.

 

[Kurtomatic]

Sorry, i lost the "if the target starts it´s NEXT turn", so i agree with Rajaah. It one turn.

I play a character with this power, and that is the way I read it as well. The begin and end conditions both reference "its next turn", which in implicitly identifies the same turn. The word next creates some out of context confusion, since next has a strong recursive vibe to it, but I think a redundant reading of next is much more consistent with the rules on the whole.

 

[Kurtomatic]

Most such powers (that are -likely- to have an effect for two turns), btw, are minor action rather than free -- as free actions are usually triggered (and thus usually trigger on the attack this turn and give you a benefit for next turn). But it's really frequent that a minor action power will give you a benefit for both this turn and next turn, usually either helping your attacks or your movement.

This a good argument, but I will note that this power is a standard attack power that damages and conditionally debuffs the target on a hit. This is not a more common instant/interrupt debuff (target is slowed until the end of its next turn), where the condition takes effect immediately, and only the end is defined. In this case there is a conditional start of the condition defined, and also an end definition. In this case, both the start and end definitions are the same.

Are there other example powers with conditional effects/conditions p) that explicitly define both the start and end on the target's turn(s), rather than yours?

 

[Kurtomatic]

Just to be clear, here is the hit declaration for Frigid Blade (at-will attack):

Hit: 1[W] + Intelligence modifier cold damage. If the target starts its next turn adjacent to you, it takes a penalty to speed equal to your Constitution modifier until the end of its next turn.

 

[Ryujin]

The phrasing of the power (1st level at-will) is "if the target starts its next turn adjacent to you, it takes a penalty to speed equal to your Con modifier until the end of its next turn".

So does that mean the foe's movement is reduced for one turn or two? Or am I overthinking this?

Two turns. It starts its turn next to you, so it gets the speed penalty. That's for this turn. This penalty extends until the end of its NEXT turn, so two turns total.

 

[Dayspire]

Yes. This happens all the time; there are a lot of self-buffs that last two turns (eg, "until the end of your next turn", so you can make your normal attack buffed for two turns, or spend an action point this turn and get an advantage on your attack next turn, depending).

Examples (minor action):

Allied Rythm
Agency of Chance
Chant of Accuracy
Cloak of Sound
Ghost Walk/Phase Shift
Song of Speed

etc, ad nausium

More examples (free action):

Dread Disappearance
Spider Scuttle
Dark Wings

Most such powers (that are -likely- to have an effect for two turns), btw, are minor action rather than free -- as free actions are usually triggered (and thus usually trigger on the attack this turn and give you a benefit for next turn). But it's really frequent that a minor action power will give you a benefit for both this turn and next turn, usually either helping your attacks or your movement.

These are all self-buffs, are there any condition-applying attacks that last 2 turns?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

@MrMyth OK, I understand what you guys are all on about, I missed the point of confusion entirely.

There is no doubt about the time of the effect starting, but yes, its impossible to say whether the end point is defined in terms of when the hit was made or when the effect started. Take your pick.

My point about wording is still valid. If the end point was supposed to be the same turn as the starting point then it could have simply said "until the end of its turn", which would perforce be referenced to the start of the effect. That would possibly indicate they really do mean it lasts 2 turns. On the other hand the power's author may well simply have not considered the ambiguity and used the most commonly encountered duration wording.

In general it is at least very rare for a debuff to last more than one of the target's turns without allowing a save. In fact it may even be unprecedented. There are plenty of effects which can last more than a full round for the caster via "until the end of your next turn", but those are presumably beneficial in nature. I think that tends to indicate strongly that the intent is to have the effect last one turn for the monster.

Its just a matter of the DM weighing those two factors. You might want to throw this one to CS or crosspost it to the WotC 4e Q&A forum. There are some serious rules lawyers there...

 

[Prestidigitalis]

I play a character with this power, and that is the way I read it as well. The begin and end conditions both reference "its next turn", which in implicitly identifies the same turn. The word next creates some out of context confusion, since next has a strong recursive vibe to it, but I think a redundant reading of next is much more consistent with the rules on the whole.

I disagree -- next is in no way recursive. The issue (as I tried to explain in my earlier comment) is NEXT relative to WHAT? Is it next turn relative to the attack or to the starting of their next turn?

I'm okay with either answer, but this is another case where there simply is no RAW answer, because the referents are ambiguous.

 

[Marshall]

Just to be clear, here is the hit declaration for Frigid Blade (at-will attack):

Holy Crap! Brain Freeze! How the heck are you supposed to interpret that?

The first "Next" is obviously meant to be restrictive, limiting the power to only the targets next turn. Except, if its only that turn that is affected then the second "next" is redundant. It wouldnt be the first time that WotC has caused confusion with needless redundancy.