Treacherous_B said:
Perhaps it's just me, but it seems like most people here are underestimating the block/deflect abilities' effectiveness at low levels. At level 3 we're talking an opposed roll where the Jedi is getting +6 over the opponent using these numbers: (1/2 character level +1, trained UTF +5, skill focus UTF +5, Cha. bonus +3) vs. another class with (BAB +3, Str./Dex. +3, additional modifiers +2). That 6 point gulf if not insignificant, as it means even with a comparatively low reflex save (around 17) many attacks should be deflected. Also, if we take the above example, that allows the Jedi to use the talent twice per round with a penalty of (at-worse) being forced to make it a roll with but +1 over the opponent.
And a soldier with Battle Armor will have a Reflex defense of 20 at 1st level against *every* attack, without spending a single talent, not to mention a boost to his Fortitude defense that also applies to his damage threshold. Since Jedi get to play with two talents, we'll give the Soldier two, as well: Armored Defense and Improved Armored Defense.
That gives him a Reflex Defense Bonus of +11 vs. the attack bonus of +8 you give - a gulf of 3 points rather than 6, but it applies against every single attack, melee or ranged. On the first attack, he's behind, but as early as the second, he's ahead. Come the third attack, the Jedi is basically praying for a high roll while the Soldier sits pretty with his Defense being the same as it ever was. Of course, the Soldier's bonus also applies against area effects like grenades.
If the Soldier spends his talents elsewhere, his Reflex defense drops by one at 3rd level. If the *Jedi* spends his talents elsewhere, *his* virtual Reflex defense drops by at least *nine,* maybe more if he has a lower Dex than Cha.
Treacherous_B said:
And this is all just comparing block/deflect to other combat. Most Jedi will have access to force powers, the benefits of which should be obvious (force slam is especially good considering most of the arguments for Jedi being balanced fine stem from the "gang up on them" school of thought), and also other talent trees (elusive target is a good one).
Force Slam works very well on creatures that bunch up (like battle droids). No better than a grenade, though or autofire, though, and at this level you can get a lot more of both of those. It doesn't work so well against clone troopers or even Hutt crime syndicate thugs, who spread out, take advantage of cover and employ small unit tactics.
Powers like Mind Trick (to avoid combat or get a huge edge at its outset) and Force Grip (to essentially stun-lock a single opponent) have proven by far the best options for Jedi IMC.
Of course, anyone can have Force Powers at the cost of one more feat than a Jedi has to spend, and Noble are far more likely to have a high Charisma since it's synergistic to the rest of their schtick.
Treacherous_B said:
Perhaps at higher levels these benefits become less important - it certainly seems that way on paper - but for my money low-level games should be dominated by the party's Jedi. Is it possible I'm just wrong about this and need to play more SWSE? Of course. But until that time comes I can only analyze what I see on the paper, and nothing that's been said in this thread has thus-far changed my mind. I am open to suggestions, though, so keep 'em coming.
My experience has been very, very different. At low levels, armor is godly and heavy weapons capable of laying down an autofire burst are the best foil against it - it often translates into half damage from a soldier with a blaster, or no damage from a Jedi with a lightsaber.
