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Take the GM out of the Equation- A 3e design philosophy

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Henry

Autoexreginated
Mr. Lobo said:
How does it attack? When I describe the action what does it do? What's an eblast? How does it work? I've never heard of that before. I have to look it up.

He wrote the notes, so he doesn't have to look it up. If you wrote the notes, you wouldn't, either. (Elblast with 2 jumps refers to Complete Arcane's Warlock, by the way.) Some DM's that I've seen write notes for their games like they're planning on publishing the thing. It's so much prep time (IMO) that you can't find what you NEED when you actually run the encounter. On the other hand, if you write those things that are most likely to happen in interaction with the PCs, then that's all you'll need.


My PC's loot the corpse.

What armor does it have for an AC 29? Any shields for taking into account flat footedness? Any natural armor to take into account for a touch attack?

What weapons are being used? Are they magical or enchanted? How much are they worth if I sell them?

How much money does it have?

Any gems? How much are they worth and what kind are they?

Any magical items worth taking? How are they statted out? What schools of magic do they have if a PC casts detect magic?

That's under the treasure section. :) Seriously, all of those questions are irrelevant for an NPC stat block for combat because the only time players will be interested in this info is when they loot the corpse. That's why I always include a treasure section for an encounter, but then, I've done this for every edition of D&D I've ever played.
 

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mmadsen

First Post
This exact same issue has faced wargames for centuries. Most modern wargames derive from the Kriegspiel (literally wargame) of 19th-century Prussia:
The nineteenth-century Prussian game started life with a rigid structure and copious formal rules. The two sides were each placed in a separate room with a model of the terrain or a map. The umpires moved from one room to another collecting orders from the players, and then retired to a third room to consult the rules and find the results of combat. A great deal of their time was consumed in leafing through voluminous sets of rules, consulting tables and giving rulings on fine legal points. By about 1870, however, this rigid system was starting to be thought rather clumsy and time-consuming. Quite apart from the many defects and loopholes in the rules themselves, it reduced the umpires, who were often very senior officers, to the role of mere clerks and office boys. clearly, such a state of affairs was intolerable.​
Most "modern" games of the 1970s and 1980s (e.g., Squad Leader, Third Reich) followed the "voluminous sets of rules" model, but the Prussians moved away from it 100 years earlier:
It was General von verdy du Vernois who finally broke with this system, and abolished the rule book altogether. His approach to the wargame was the free kriegspiel, in which the umpire had a totally free hand to decide the result of moves and combats. He did not do this according to any set of written rules, but just on his own military knowledge and experience. He would collect the players' moves in exactly the same way as before; but he would then simply give a considered professional opinion on the outcome. This speeded up the game a very great deal, and ensured that there was always a well thought-out reason for everything that happened. This was a great help in the debrief after the game, and it allowed players to learn by their mistakes very quickly.A modern "free kriegspiel" often combines umpiring with a randomizer (e.g., a ten-sided die, or "nugget"): The system for finding the results of combat in a free kriegspiel is classically simple. First of all the umpire looks at the position of each side: how many and what type of troops are involved; how their morale is bearing up; and what orders they have been given. He next considers the ground on which the action will be fought, and any special tactical problems which either side might encounter; whether there are any obstacles in the way of an attacker; whether a flank attack might be possible, and so on.

When the umpire has all relevant information at his disposal, he ought to be able to give an informed opinion on the probabilities of the result. He will not simply say something like 'The French infantry hassuccessfully stormed the hill', but will quote possibilities, such as: 'The French have a 50% chance of storming the hill successfully; a 30% chance of capturing half of it, while disputing the rest; and a 20% chance of being totally repulsed. High scores favour the French'. It is important that the umpire is as specific as possible with these figures, as this forces him to consider all the factors involved in the combat and to think through the full implications of his decision. He must also be clear whether a high dice roll will be good or bad for the attacker, i.e., whether the top 50% (a die roll of 5-9) or the bottom 50% (a roll of 0-4) will mean the hill has been carried. In this case he has stated that the high score will be good for the attacker.​
 

Nathal

Explorer
Do we play Dungeons and Dragons, or is it Drudgery and Disagreements?

I won't run 3.5. Just the stat blocks hurt my head. Lejendary Adventure is my cup of tea.
 

Henry

Autoexreginated
mmadsen said:
This exact same issue has faced wargames for centuries. Most modern wargames derive from the Kriegspiel (literally wargame) of 19th-century Prussia:

Most "modern" games of the 1970s and 1980s (e.g., Squad Leader, Third Reich) followed the "voluminous sets of rules" model, but the Prussians moved away from it 100 years earlier:

...He will not simply say something like 'The French infantry hassuccessfully stormed the hill', but will quote possibilities, such as: 'The French have a 50% chance of storming the hill successfully; a 30% chance of capturing half of it, while disputing the rest; and a 20% chance of being totally repulsed. High scores favour the French'.​


THAT'S HOW I USED TO PLAY 1E! :) Seriously, because I couldn't make heads or tails of the combat system, players would describe what they attempted, and I'd guess the outcome.
 

Mr. Lobo

First Post
I just want to make a quick rebuttal here as there is another current thread regarding prep time and I think this current point only tangentially touches on the GM issue that was initiated. Maybe this can be taken over to the prep time thread somehow?

Henry said:
He wrote the notes, so he doesn't have to look it up. If you wrote the notes, you wouldn't, either. (Elblast with 2 jumps refers to Complete Arcane's Warlock, by the way.)


Right. But one still has to write the notes in the first place and that is in addition to cutting and pasting stat blocks from the SRD. Where would I cut and paste from to get a Beholder's stat block?

Henry said:
Some DM's that I've seen write notes for their games like they're planning on publishing the thing. It's so much prep time (IMO) that you can't find what you NEED when you actually run the encounter. On the other hand, if you write those things that are most likely to happen in interaction with the PCs, then that's all you'll need.

I agree with this to some extent but writing bullet notes works great for me in this instance and cuts out some of the work.

Henry said:
That's under the treasure section. :) Seriously, all of those questions are irrelevant for an NPC stat block for combat (emphasis Mr. Lobo) because the only time players will be interested in this info is when they loot the corpse. That's why I always include a treasure section for an encounter, but then, I've done this for every edition of D&D I've ever played.

From the original post by MoogleEmpMog I wasn't under the impression that this was a stat block just for combat only. Even if I misinterpreted it the point is that to run an encounter more than just a stat block is needed.

If I have an NPC with an AC of 29 I still don't know exactly what a flat footed or touch attack AC for said NPC is based on this limited info. It gives no indication of natural AC or if a shield or other device is being used. It's in the notes maybe but you still have to do the work of writing the notes. Does that take under, just, or over 5 minutes?

Obviously, we have different styles for preparing an encounter.

I didn't mean to be snarky in my trite response to MoogleEmpMog's post but to make the point that my style is different and takes more time than just copying a stat block.

Which I do when I can and think is a great idea by the way. But it still takes time to include other information within that cut and pasted block that I think is relevent and helps me run my game better.
 
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WayneLigon

Adventurer
BelenUmeria said:
3e Designer Philosophy: ... "I'll occasionally have to back up a bit and explain some things that we did with the core rules. One thing, for example, that we tried to do was to "take the DM out of the equation" as much as possible. ...

I think that was the best thing they ever did. Having a consistant rules set with rules that address many things that were left up to GM fiat before was what has brought our group back to D&D and for the most part kept it there.

I think it's more of 'let's make sure the GM shouldn't have to come up with a house rule for this' philosophy. But if it knocks back some of the 'absolute power' the GM enjoyed in previous editions, that's good too. Some of the grandstanding silliness in Knights of the Dinner Table is not just fiction, y'know. Then again, our play style encourages that. We've always seen the GM as a kind of 'super player'. We all contribute to the game in a way, so we all have a say in how it's run.

3E for the most part got rid of rules lawyers in my experience, since most of the things they argued about were either (1) memory holdovers from previous editions or sometimes entirely different games (2) something that was never statted out to begin with.
 

Christian

Explorer
OK, since it looks like nobody's yet made a Speed joke, and I have nothing else useful to contribute ...

Monte: "What are you doing?"

Jonathan: "Taking the DM out of the equation."

Monte: "You're not going to shoot him, are you?"
 

mmadsen

First Post
Henry said:
THAT'S HOW I USED TO PLAY 1E! :) Seriously, because I couldn't make heads or tails of the combat system, players would describe what they attempted, and I'd guess the outcome.
I can remember playing that way too (in a sort of free Kriegspiel style) on the bus while on a field trip or at recess with my friends. (This was in third and fourth grade.) Really, I'm not sure that all the rules add anything...if you trust your DM.
 

Kalendraf

Explorer
BelenUmeria said:
The only way I can still GM 3e (3.5) is to use a computer program to stat encounters. Otherwise, I would use the d20 modern rules. It is impossible to GM a 3e game without support these days.

I DM a weekly 3.5 campaign and don't need to require computer support like that. I just rely on my hand drawn maps, a few encounter notes and my books. Throw in my dice, DM screen, map, figures & markers and I'm ready to go. My prep time is sometimes as short as 45 minutes for a 4 hour session, but probably closer to 1 to 2 hours on average.

The only time I bother with the computer is for character sheets (currently using a handly xls one for some NPCs), and the SRD for doing advanced HD monsters. I could do it by hand, but the printed version just looks nicer.
 

3E issues

I actually haven't found much issue with the rules themselves. Typically, the rules lawyering that happens on the table are done by two of my players. One of them is so bad at preparation that even when told to he does not show up at a session with his character sheet and what spells his wizard has prepared. (I'm considering banning him from playing a non-spontaneous spell caster next campaign) The other loves to twink and will find all the benefits possible (including some that I consider egregious) and then when I come down on him he has a bad time.

Otherwise, I really like having the rules explicitly handle nearly everything the PCs can do. Keeping track of everything is already a tough enough job, let alone making new consistent rules.

Prep time isn't really an issue for me. I use published adventures. For me, if those weren't available I might as well not DM. I find it much easier to thread together a campaign from disparate pieces than for me to start from scratch.
 

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