Take the GM out of the Equation- A 3e design philosophy

[Henry]

Interesting point by Evilhalfling:

When I DM, if a player has an objection to one of my rules, I'll let him bring it up, and if he can quote the correct rule quickly (in other words, none of this "wait... wait... let me see here...") Then if it's obvious I'm wrong, I'll change it right there. If it's ambiguous, or if it would take too long to look it up, dig into it, etc. I'll make a spot-rule, and tell them so, and if they disagree I'll ask them to make a note and bring it up after the game, and we'll discuss then. In other words, smoothness of game play is all-important.

The main difference in D&D 3E and other less rule-conprehensive games is that there IS no reference to fall back on, and players who want to rules-argue will do so based on the realism of an ad-hoc rule. However, I've never (EVER) had a player refuse to play if I made a rule they disagreed with, especially if I give them the chance to argue it after the game. I almost never "ret-con" a ruling, but I will play a changed ruling for future games.

Does anyone in this thread handle this similarly? Does anyone here have problems with players arguing even AFTER the fact?

 

[sjmiller]

If you have multiple encounters in a session, it takes longer than that just to copy the stats out of the MM!

You may use the MM and have no trouble. However, I find it to be a clunky resource with stat blocks that make some things hard to find and it just takes to long when the special abilities, qualities, DR, SR, special attacks etc are added into the mix.

Well, I don't know what to say. I've worked with much worse books in the past for a host of different game systems, so I guess I do not see this as a stumbling block.

As for copying out the stats, I found that to be a fairly quick job. Most encounters do not require every bit of the text to be copied. I create initiative/combat cards for each encounter. It has the basics needed for the encounter. If I need more detailed data I can check the MM. I bookmark the pages I will need, just in case. That's bookmark in the traditional sense of placing a physical marker in the book on the page I need. Plus, those cards can be reused at a later date. I would be more than happy to show what I used, if you are interested. Heck, I could even whip it up as a Word form, or something.

 

[Henry]

Where did I say that they required GM interpretation? It is possible to have fewer complex rules and still not need to depend on DM interpretation.

I'd have to disagree, because even complex rules will still need adjudication. Heck, adjudication is what turned something as simple as "armor class" in D&D into "touch AC" and "flat-footed AC." 1st edition DM's for instance feel no need for "touch AC" and the like, because they're more comfortable coming up with their own conditions for determining whether a touch spell can hit someone. (Besides extrapolating from Shocking Grasp, that is.)

 

[hexgrid]

prep time

Statements about prep time aren't meaningful unless you also say what PC levels you're prepping for- there's a huge variance.

 

[Belen]

Does anyone in this thread handle this similarly? Does anyone here have problems with players arguing even AFTER the fact?

Yes, yes and non issue. When I had several rules lawyers in the group, then yes, I had that problem. They would get so caught up in that argument that the game no longer mattered.

In my current group, the only person who looks up rules is me and only when I forget a rule that is not used often.

In the old group, I had two rules lawyers and a third that wanted everything done the RPGA/LG way. Add in another player who "interpreted" rules that did not exist. It was nightmarish.

I am not having some many problems now, but I know what a lot of people have to deal with.

And I still would not GM without e-tools.

E-tools does a game good.

 

[sjmiller]

If you have multiple encounters in a session, it takes longer than that (20 minutes to 1 hour) just to copy the stats out of the MM!

For the record, my last session, which lasted 5 hours, had several combats in it and one NPC discussion session. The combats included 3 different kinds of orcs (12 total), 8 lizardmen (including a shaman), 2 mummies, and 3 creatures of my own creation (Children of Gruumush, orc/boar tauric creatures, info available on request). Total prep time was just shy of an hour, and that was because I was making some fancy spell sticks (one use magic items) for the shaman.

 

[Belen]

Well, I don't know what to say. I've worked with much worse books in the past for a host of different game systems, so I guess I do not see this as a stumbling block.

As for copying out the stats, I found that to be a fairly quick job. Most encounters do not require every bit of the text to be copied. I create initiative/combat cards for each encounter. It has the basics needed for the encounter. If I need more detailed data I can check the MM. I bookmark the pages I will need, just in case. That's bookmark in the traditional sense of placing a physical marker in the book on the page I need. Plus, those cards can be reused at a later date. I would be more than happy to show what I used, if you are interested. Heck, I could even whip it up as a Word form, or something.

I'm good, but I'd still like to see what you came up with. E-tools does it all for me, including listing all the unique abilities.

IME, dragons are the worst because you have general draconic abilities on one page and specifics 8 pages later. I prefer just to print the monsters to be used that session from e-tools as it gives me everything I need on a single page.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

An NPC needs standard attack routine, hp, ac, max skill ranks, number of skills, one or two relevant feats, and relevant ability scores.

For example

Master Galthana (gest. Unf/War 8)
hp 50
ac 29
attack +10 1d8+2+4d6
full attack +8 1d8+2+4d6, +8 1d8+2
ranged attack (touch) elblast 4d6
SA: stunning fist 8/day (DC 20), combat expertise +/-5, chain blast (2 jumps), invis., darkness, see in dark
Skills (6) max 11 (Cha +4, Dex +3, Wis +3, Int +2)

A monster can be copied from the SRD online or get the same treatment.

Average prep time: 5 min or less per creature type.

 

[Remathilis]

I generally like the concept of "GMless rules" The concept is NOT "the GM has no power", its "The GM should NEVER have to design a rule on the fly unless he wishes to."

Remember, if your group agrees, you CAN ignore the finer rules and stick with the basics. I think alot of problems can be circumvented by just TALKING with your game group and deciding the level of complexity.

However, a rule-set should stand up to the most abusive DM or power-gaming PC. Otherwise, I could write my own rules...

 

[Mr. Lobo]

An NPC needs standard attack routine, hp, ac, max skill ranks, number of skills, one or two relevant feats, and relevant ability scores.

For example

Master Galthana (gest. Unf/War 8)
hp 50
ac 29
attack +10 1d8+2+4d6
full attack +8 1d8+2+4d6, +8 1d8+2
ranged attack (touch) elblast 4d6
SA: stunning fist 8/day (DC 20), combat expertise +/-5, chain blast (2 jumps), invis., darkness, see in dark
Skills (6) max 11 (Cha +4, Dex +3, Wis +3, Int +2)

A monster can be copied from the SRD online or get the same treatment.

Average prep time: 5 min or less per creature type.

How does it attack? When I describe the action what does it do? What's an eblast? How does it work? I've never heard of that before. I have to look it up.

My PC's loot the corpse.

What armor does it have for an AC 29? Any shields for taking into account flat footedness? Any natural armor to take into account for a touch attack?

What weapons are being used? Are they magical or enchanted? How much are they worth if I sell them?

How much money does it have?

Any gems? How much are they worth and what kind are they?

Any magical items worth taking? How are they statted out? What schools of magic do they have if a PC casts detect magic?

This is why it takes me some time to prepare for an encounter.