D&D 5E Takning the Off hand shield as an improvised weapon and running crazy with it...

[ClaytonCross]

So I saw this other thread:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?654248-Shield-Attacks-and-AC-Bonus
Strider1973 asked if you keep the AC bonus if your using the shield as a weapon which has been answered in official documentation.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SA-Compendium.pdf
If you attack with a shield—most likely as an improvised weapon—do you keep the +2 bonus to AC?
Attacking with a shield doesn’t deprive you of the bonus to AC.

But my mind goes weird places... so I am going to complicate this question here is the relevant information....

Feat: Dual Wielder
You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
You master fighting with two weapons, gaining the following benefits:
- You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
- You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't light.
- You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.

Improvised Weapons
Sometimes characters don't have their weapons and have to attack with whatever is at hand. An improvised weapon includes any object you can wield in one or two hands, such as broken glass, a table leg, a frying pan, a wagon wheel, or a dead goblin.
Often, an improvised weapon is similar to an actual weapon and can be treated as such. For example, a table leg is akin to a club. At the DM's option, a character proficient with a weapon can use a similar object as if it were that weapon and use his or her proficiency bonus.
An object that bears no resemblance to a weapon deals 1d4 damage (the DM assigns a damage type appropriate to the object). If a character uses a ranged weapon to make a melee attack, or throws a melee weapon that does not have the thrown property, it also deals 1d4 damage. An improvised thrown weapon has a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet.

Feat: Tavern Brawler
Accustomed to rough-and-tumble fighting using whatever weapons happen to be at hand, you gain the following benefits:
- Increase your Strength or Constitution score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
- You are proficient with improvised weapons.
- Your unarmed strike uses a d4 for damage.
- When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or an improvised weapon on your turn, you can use a bonus action to attempt to grapple the target.

Two-Weapon Fighting
When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.

http://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SA-Compendium.pdf
Is the Dueling fighting style intended to support a shield?
Yes. A character with the Dueling option usually pairs a one-handed weapon with a shield, a spellcasting focus, or a free hand.

Dueling
When you are wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls with that weapon.

Fighter Extra Attack
Beginning at 5th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, whenever you take the Attack action on your turn.
The number of attacks increases to three when you reach 11th level in this class and to four when you reach 20th level in this class.

Fighter subclass Champion at level 10:
Additional Fighting Style
At 10th level, you can choose a second option from the Fighting Style class feature.

Forge Domain Cleric: Blessing of the Forge
At 1st level, you gain the ability to imbue magic into a weapon or armor. At the end of a long rest, you can touch one nonmagical object that is a suit of armor or a simple or martial weapon. Until the end of your next long rest or until you die, the object becomes a magic item, granting a +1 bonus to AC if it’s armor or a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls if it’s a weapon.

Forge Domain Cleric: Divine Strike
At 8th level, you gain the ability to infuse your weapon strikes with the fiery power of the forge. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target. When you reach 14th level, the extra damage increases to 2d8.

..So...

Fighter 12 / Cleric 8
STR 20, DEX 10, CON 20, INT8, WIZ 14, CHA8
Human variant: Dual Wielder
Tavern Brawler
Two-Weapon Fighting Style (Fighter level 1)
Dueling (Fighter level 10)
1d8 single handed weapon
Blessing of the Forge on the Shield +1
Plate armor

What's the AC?
1A. Plate AC18, + 2 Shield, +1 Blessing of the Forge, +1 Duel Wielder bonus = AC22

1B. Plate AC18, + 2 Shield, +1 Duel Wielder bonus = AC21
1C. Plate AC18, + 2 Shield, +1 Blessing of the Forge = AC21
1D. Plate AC18, + 2 Shield = AC20​

Attack action?
2A. (3d8+7)(3d8+7)(3d8+7)(3d8+6 Shield) Dueling (Primary Weapon),Blessing of the Forge, & Divine Strike

2B. (2d8+5)(2d8+5)(2d8+5)(1d4+1d8+6 Shield) Blessing of the Forge & Divine Strike
2C. (2d8+7)(2d8+7)(2d8+7)(1d4+1d8+5 Shield) Dueling (Primary Weapon) & Divine Strike
2D. (2d8+5)(2d8+5)(2d8+5)(1d4+1d8+5 Shield) Only Divine Strike
2E. (2d8+5)(2d8+5)(2d8+5)(1d4+5 Shield) No Divine Strike

2F. (2d8+5)(2d8+5)(2d8+5)(1d4+6 Shield) No Divine Strike but Blessing of the Forge
2G. (2d8+5)(2d8+5)(2d8+5)(1d4+5 Shield) No Divine Strike but dueling
​

​

2H. (2d8+5)(2d8+5)(2d8+5)(1d4+6 Shield) No Divine Strike but dueling & Blessing of the Forge

I feel like 1A and 2B are fine but that's just me as I am willing to consider the shield a weapon at all times when you get the Duel Wielder for that specific intent.

-Edited- for format and to add my opinion at the end.

​

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Not trying to be nitpicky, but you can't say the shoield is no weapon for dueling fighting style and have it count as a weapon for two weapon fighting to gain +1AC.

 

[ClaytonCross]

Not trying to be nitpicky, but you can't say the shoield is no weapon for dueling fighting style and have it count as a weapon for two weapon fighting to gain +1AC.

Well that's part of my question... I tend to agree but I think their is room for debate since the Officially posted Compendium stats that your intended to be able to use it with a shield. The question is weather using the shield as a weapon then breaks that rule, because it is still a shield for the AC bonus and its not a "weapon" in the since that its literally a weapon, its being considered a weapon because your improvising it. That means, if you have rope in the other hand do no longer get the +2 for dueling because you could hit someone with it like a wipe doing 1d4 damage? Does the potential do be a weapon negate Dueling?

So is it a weapon and a shield and if so does that mean the fighter gets +1 to damage and +1 to AC from Blessing of the Forge? Or is it a shield getting only the AC bonus and improvising it does not get all the weapon bonuses? When does it become a weapon? Does it suddenly become +1 damage when you hit something with it removing +2 dueling but not being qualified for +1 damage from Blessing of the Forge because it was not a weapon when it was blessed at the end of the long rest? or can you announce it as a weapon then due to your intent and get the bonus +1 damage?

... I am honestly not sure.

I suspect 1 of 3 options

1. Shield is a shield and a weapon at all times because you have the option preventing Dueling but allowing everything else.

2. Shield is only a shield, using it as an improvised weapon doesn't actually make it weapon ... its improvised as a sort of separate category than weapons on the table meaning you can use Dueling with your main hand, get the AC bonus, Blessing of the Forge +1 AC, but Blessing of the Forge +1 damage, Divine Strike, Two-weapon fighting style, and the duel wielder feat do not apply. Tavern Brawler feat does. The implication being spells like Magic Weapon can not effect your favorite tankard so that you can use it as a +3 magic tankard for 1d4+8 damage... though personally I like the idea of a fighter beating the crap out of an enemy while drinking their ale.

3. Shield only counts as a weapon during use as a weapon Blessing of the Forge +1 damage can not apply, and Dueling is nullified for the round. so the intent would need to be stated prior to the extra attacks.... or not since that happens after the extra attacks.... but the feats apply during so they would work as well as Divine Strike. This basically means that anything that effects weapons prior to combat like putting poison on or enchanting your tankard would not work but abilities like Divine Smite used as part of weapon strike would.

I am thinking #1, but that also means you could cast Magic Weapon on your shield to increase your to hit and damage with it. (Assuming its not magical)

 

[Hawk Diesel]

So my personal take (as I would rule at my table):

1) RAW for dueling style is meant to include of shield, but RAI is that the shield is meant to function as a shield. Thus you would not benefit from the damage bonus in any turn that you use your shield as a weapon.

2) If someone took the Dual Wielder feat and wanted to use their shield as a weapon, I do not know that I would allow the +1 AC. Once again, RAW does not seem to differentiate, but RAI seems to be that it was meant to compensate those choosing weapons and offensive over using a shield and defense.

3) My take it that a magic bonus is specific, because in my games magic is used and created with specific purpose and function in mind. Thus I would not allow a +1 shield to gain +1 on attack and damage when used as an improvised weapon.

4) Divine Strike would apply to damage made with a shield being used as a weapon. No issue there for me.

Side note: where are you getting 3d8 weapon damage? Most I can calculate is 2d8 without taking additional levels in cleric.

EDIT: Also, a better strategy would be to make one attack with the shield as an improvised weapon, use bonus action to grapple, next action to shove, and then proceed for the rest of the fight attacking with advantage.

 

[ClaytonCross]

So my personal take (as I would rule at my table):

1) RAW for dueling style is meant to include of shield, but RAI is that the shield is meant to function as a shield. Thus you would not benefit from the damage bonus in any turn that you use your shield as a weapon.

2) If someone took the Dual Wielder feat and wanted to use their shield as a weapon, I do not know that I would allow the +1 AC. Once again, RAW does not seem to differentiate, but RAI seems to be that it was meant to compensate those choosing weapons and offensive over using a shield and defense.

3) My take it that a magic bonus is specific, because in my games magic is used and created with specific purpose and function in mind. Thus I would not allow a +1 shield to gain +1 on attack and damage when used as an improvised weapon.

4) Divine Strike would apply to damage made with a shield being used as a weapon. No issue there for me.

Side note: where are you getting 3d8 weapon damage? Most I can calculate is 2d8 without taking additional levels in cleric.

EDIT: Also, a better strategy would be to make one attack with the shield as an improvised weapon, use bonus action to grapple, next action to shove, and then proceed for the rest of the fight attacking with advantage.

The 3rd D8 is the weapon, however that means in my rush to meat a friend I for some reason used a D8 instead of a D4 for the shield. I have fixed it.

It seems like your in the camp it only counts as a weapon during the attack.

- You can't enchant it with Blessing of the Forge +1 Damage because its not a weapon when you wake up.

- You can't gain the benefit from the +1AC bonus from duel wielding because its not a weapon when your being attacked on the opponents turn.

- It is a weapon during the attack allowing for the 2d8 from damage bonus Divine strike and I assume the benefit for Two-weapon fighting style at least as long as your are proficient ether because being proficient in all marshal weapon you consider "similar" to something the fighter is proficient to or because the took tavern brawler. (Correct me if I am wrong)

So then its odd to me that you don't get the Dueling bonus to your primary weapon (but not your Shield) because when your using your primary weapon you don't have a second weapon but just a shield and that is not a conflict. When you use the shield and it becomes a weapon it would not benefit from Dueling because you have a second weapon but that happens after your primary attacks. (This was not how I wrote the A1 option I intended to change it to just the primary but kept forgetting I will fix it now.)

 

[Hawk Diesel]

The 3rd D8 is the weapon, however that means in my rush to meat a friend I for some reason used a D8 instead of a D4 for the shield. I have fixed it.

No, I mean why are you using 3d8 for the damage of the single hand weapon? I calculate 1d8 for the weapon + 1d8 for Divine Strike. You need 6 more levels of cleric to get +2d8 added to the weapon damage. But yes, shield damage was also off.

- You can't enchant it with Blessing of the Forge +1 Damage because its not a weapon when you wake up.

No, from my perspective you could give the shield a +1 bonus to attack and damage with Blessing of the Forge. But you would not also get a +1 to AC. You need to specify whether the magic will be used for offense or defense.

You can't gain the benefit from the +1AC bonus from duel wielding because its not a weapon when your being attacked on the opponents turn.

I wouldn't use that as my rationale (though I suppose it works). I just see the intention of the feat's +1 to AC as a bonus to mitigate the lower defense of choosing an extra weapon over a shield. Since wielding a shield eliminates the meaningfulness of this choice (since you are getting the best of both worlds), that would be my reason for not permitting the bonus to AC.

- It is a weapon during the attack allowing for the 2d8 from damage bonus Divine strike and I assume the benefit for Two-weapon fighting style at least as long as your are proficient ether because being proficient in all marshal weapon you consider "similar" to something the fighter is proficient to or because the took tavern brawler. (Correct me if I am wrong)

Well, I still say it would only be a 1d8 since you are only a level 8 cleric and need to be at least a level 14 cleric to gain the increase to a +2d8. Additionally, as I re-read divine strike, it specifies that you apply the damage only once per turn, not once per attack. Thus you would not be adding 1d8 (or 2d8 at cleric 14) to each successful strike, just one.

Also, benefitting from Two Weapon Fighting style does not require you to be proficient with the off-hand weapon to gain the bonus from damage. Just that it be a weapon (or improvised weapon).

But when using the shield as a weapon, Tavern Brawler already ensures that you will be proficient and thus add your proficiency bonus to attack rolls made with the shield. Wothout Tavern Brawler, I would consider having martial weapon proficiency at minimum, or possessing the Shield Master feat at most, to add your proficiency bonus to attack rolls.

So then its odd to me that you don't get the Dueling bonus to your primary weapon (but not your Shield) because when your using your primary weapon you don't have a second weapon but just a shield and that is not a conflict. When you use the shield and it becomes a weapon it would not benefit from Dueling because you have a second weapon but that happens after your primary attacks. (This was not how I wrote the A1 option I intended to change it to just the primary but kept forgetting I will fix it now.)

I agree with you that both RAW and Sage Advice allow the dueling style to benefit while wielding a shield, and a very strict reading of RAW would potentially allow a person to use it as an offhand weapon and still get the damage bonus to weapon attacks. However, I think this ruling breaks the RAI (Rules As Intended). The fighting style is meant to be specifically for a character that forgoes the option of using more than one weapon, and more specifically the very name evokes images of the classic movies of dueling fencers (See Princess Bride for an example).

If I had a player that had the Dueling fighting style with a shield and he intended to use it as an offhand weapon, I would make it clear that he would need to declare either before taking the attack action that he would use his shield as a weapon, and thus not benefit from his normal +2 to damage. Otherwise if he took the attack action and then attempted to use a shield as a weapon on his bonus action without declaring, I would tell him no because he had already benefitted from the damage of his Dueling fighting style.

Hope that clarifies and helps.

 

[ClaytonCross]

No, I mean why are you using 3d8 for the damage of the single hand weapon? I calculate 1d8 for the weapon + 1d8 for Divine Strike. You need 6 more levels of cleric to get +2d8 added to the weapon damage. But yes, shield damage was also off.

Sure, I really don't care about the damage just the implication that you could impower the weapon as with Divine smite it was just easier to do demonstrate my points with Fighter Champion and Forge Domain Cleric as they together have an example of all the edge cases I could think of that would require interpretation of effects. I reduced the damage to 1d8 though I didn't take it way from all the attacks because the intent is to demonstrate the state of the shield as qualifying as a "weapon" to trigger the ability not really to show case the ability... but you are correct.

No, from my perspective you could give the shield a +1 bonus to attack and damage with Blessing of the Forge. But you would not also get a +1 to AC. You need to specify whether the magic will be used for offense or defense.

See this is interesting in that a +1 Shield designates what type of enchantment it has "While holding this shield, you have a +1 bonus to AC". Blessing of the Forge provides +1 based on what is enchanted. I understand that the idea of it adding to the damage is strange but at the same time a 1d4+1 off hand weapon is not broken by any means and I don't think its necessarily against RAI so much as perhaps something they didn't consider and their for had no intent. Not being broken and not having a clear intent I think ether call is fine but I … being just personal opinion... want consistency on an over arching reason why. I think a valid approach (while certainly not the only approach) is to identify if and when it qualifies as a weapon when cast to when its used. I would say if your intent is to fight with it as primary goal of take the Dual Wielder for that specific propose (because by RAW and in real life with the exception of a buckler, shields are not light but commonly used as weapons) I think it is fair to say yes for your character your shield is a weapon at all times for such effect and that Blessing of the Forge being so very niche is perhaps the only one that will apply both AC and Damage is limited to 1 and as such I would fall the "rule of cool" an allow it. ...but I understand if your ruling against it needs to be one or the other as an oddity but I also think that's why the "rule of cool" applies since it does not seem to me to qualify as "broken".

I wouldn't use that as my rationale (though I suppose it works). I just see the intention of the feat's +1 to AC as a bonus to mitigate the lower defense of choosing an extra weapon over a shield. Since wielding a shield eliminates the meaningfulness of this choice (since you are getting the best of both worlds), that would be my reason for not permitting the bonus to AC.

At the moment I am considering the shield a weapon as long as the bearer has the Dual Wielder feat. I understand the view
that the feat is usually used with out a shield and is compensating for lower defense but at the same time it usually used with two Mauls or two longswords and to be honest I think the +1 AC is an offset because you just took a feat to do something cool when really you could have to rapiers without the feat and do the same mechanic damage. The only weapon that does not have a 1d8 damage that this feat gives you access to is the Lance which is only not two handed restricted weapon when your mounted allowing you to use a shield or be silly with two lances on a horse. So considering the player took a feat for flavor and in this case to use the shield as a weapon that's pretty week for a feat, and as I am consider the shield now as a weapon , then its another not broken their for rule of cool niche. Does that mean they are now +2 AC above normal with a Forge Domain Cleric that has Duel Wielder feat for this purpose and is fighting with a 1d8 or 1d6 weapon and a 1d4+1 shield yes... but that's so niche I am in favor of the flavor and not conserved about the creep of AC.

Well, I still say it would only be a 1d8 since you are only a level 8 cleric and need to be at least a level 14 cleric to gain the increase to a +2d8. Additionally, as I re-read divine strike, it specifies that you apply the damage only once per turn, not once per attack. Thus you would not be adding 1d8 (or 2d8 at cleric 14) to each successful strike, just one.

Sure, I explained above am wrong but my focus is on analyzing the interaction not the actual bonus to damage.

Also, benefitting from Two Weapon Fighting style does not require you to be proficient with the off-hand weapon to gain the bonus from damage. Just that it be a weapon (or improvised weapon).

But when using the shield as a weapon, Tavern Brawler already ensures that you will be proficient and thus add your proficiency bonus to attack rolls made with the shield. Without Tavern Brawler, I would consider having martial weapon proficiency at minimum, or possessing the Shield Master feat at most, to add your proficiency bonus to attack rolls.

Sure, but if you are "all in" to really fight using Duel Weider Feat, Tavern Brawler for to hit, and Damage from Two Weapon fighting your not getting Str+Pof to hit 1d4+Str that's quite the investment for not so much return. This is not an optimal build its a flavor build and with GM permission you can even say a fighter is proficient with the Shield as an improvised weapon without needing tavern brawler. These are brought up to show possible player investment into the flavor of this build which invokes bit of leniency in the interaction of the connecting abilities that see your not granting. Which is fine. I just fell like a non-broken. RAW or RAI don't are not really clear here so I feel like their is room to go either way.

I agree with you that both RAW and Sage Advice allow the dueling style to benefit while wielding a shield, and a very strict reading of RAW would potentially allow a person to use it as an offhand weapon and still get the damage bonus to weapon attacks. However, I think this ruling breaks the RAI (Rules As Intended). The fighting style is meant to be specifically for a character that forgoes the option of using more than one weapon, and more specifically the very name evokes images of the classic movies of dueling fencers (See Princess Bride for an example).

If I had a player that had the Dueling fighting style with a shield and he intended to use it as an offhand weapon, I would make it clear that he would need to declare either before taking the attack action that he would use his shield as a weapon, and thus not benefit from his normal +2 to damage. Otherwise if he took the attack action and then attempted to use a shield as a weapon on his bonus action without declaring, I would tell him no because he had already benefitted from the damage of his Dueling fighting style.

I am looking at the Shield used with Duel wilder feat defined as weapon excluding Dueling Fighting style by RAW. However if we define that improvised weapons are only weapon during the attacks that means a bottle in the hand is just a bottle but when you hit someone with it you can use divine smite. In that case I would allow dueling as RAW since the bottle is not a weapon when not in use. As far as RAI … I think the Dueling fighting is intended as a damage buff for your 1d4/6/8 weapons favoring additional strikes. I do think using getting another strike with your shield covers that so I would want to lean away from it but if I were to change stance to except improvised weapons as only weapons in combat I don't know that it takes away from the "Princess Bride feel" but I would also point out that sword and Board Duels Viking style with 3 shields are also a thing. To me dueling is about engaging in a one on one fight and has many variations. It just seems to me that its restriction to one weapon in one hand shows that it is style incentive/mechanical off set.

Hope that clarifies and helps.

It does clarify your position and help me to consider point and other views so I can grow my view point and know how to deal with it if it comes up in a game.

Right now I am thinking

- if you have the Duel wielder Feat and your fighting sword and board, the shield counts as a weapon.

- If you don't have the Duel wielder feat you simply have not trained to use a shield as an improves weapon with your off hand. Its too heavy and unwieldy without practice and trying would not likely be effective and would open you up for attacks. Since a shield is defensive option that is against the intuitive mentality of taking using it up and is something you need to learn to over come. When you train to duel wield it changes that mentally from a shield is for defense and weapon offense, to both are offense and Defense...which explains the +1 AC bonus from the feat simple being more efficient incombat.

I do HEMA so I am aware that is not entirely accurate IRL since you never consider your weapon just offense since you start off leaning guards, parries, and lines usually with a longsword as both your weapon and your shield. Then when you pick up a shield you learn quickly about creating a line and attacking the enemy weapon with your shield to isolate and block the weapon opening an attack or bashing them with the shield for the same reason … but for D&D it works for me.

I will keep an eye out I have some wiggle room here but when we started I had no idea what I though so even writing it all out helped then talking about it has helped more... Perhaps I can refine the idea a bit more.