D&D General Talking to Players

[bloodtide]

So, I have a new group and I find myself with some questions I'm hoping someone can answer.

So the players are all new to me as I've only known them a couple weeks. They are all younger then myself, so they all have a different view on things compared to me. I have a 5E Spelljammer game that they are all know each other. Some of those Spelljammer players convinced this group to stick with me. This group was previously a "goofy casual game with a Buddy DM". they have only ever played 5E D&D, and have no interest in any other game. As my game is a Hard Fun No DM Help type game, they had to agree to that and all my house rules. And they did.

So we did something of a session zero. Mostly they were making characters. They loved the part where I'd let them be any character they wanted. So they did not settle on "what" game they wanted......but two ideas were mentioned a lot. But I feel could be problems.

So the first idea is they might want to be "Secret Agents". And this is a common game idea I get from players. Though I don't think it will be a good fit for this group of newer players. As they were making characters they did not have must interest in "agent" like characters, and were "stuck" with the D&D 5E all combat characters. And I know this game will have the Mission Problem. As Secret Agents, they will be given a mission ("a quest"), but it won't be something they "want" to do. At best they will just turn down "all" Missions and the game will go nowhere, at worst they will drag themselves along something they don't want to do and the game will go nowhere. I can tell they are not the type of group that just takes ANY mission and makes a great game out of it or "does not care about the details" of what they do in the game.

So, how to avoid that?

1. So what is the draw to being a Secret Agent? Even more so for younger gamers. I did ask them this, but no one could articulate and answer, other then they are "cool". For me the draw would be going on missions. You get the mission "steal the scroll" from a vault, you TAKE it. That is part of being a Secret Agent. For me. But if not random missions, what does a younger gamer think a Secret Agent game would be about?

2. So what does Gen Y/Menlineals think of when they think Secret Agent? Again, asking them they were "not sure", "did not know" or "could not think of anything". When I mentioned 007, Borne and Mission Impossible they did say they watched "some". They, had never heard of Get Smart, Chuck, La Feem Nikita, Alias, Covert Affairs, Burn Notice, Homeland, Citidel, Old Man or Patriot. And they don't read any books. So what are the Gen Y spy/secret agent shows? Cartoons?

The second idea....is Pirates. And I feel this would not work out either. As they like "action" they sure don't want a classic pirate game where they would attack a merchant ship that put up no fight, and they got loot of like 200 barrels of pickled fish. But, also the "gold coast" of super overloaded treasure ships of....like 50,000 gold? And this is the big clash with D&D as they will expect huge tons of piles of gold coins. And then the magic items of just the captain are worth more then all the gold on the merchant ship. But if I do anything beyond the book....they will loose and have character death super quick. I know they are not ready for ship to ship combat or naval combat.

3. So again, what is the Gen Y draw for Pirates? I'm sure they don't want to do the classic pirate game of stagey. And they are sure not up to combat stratagem. I did ask them this, but no one could articulate and answer, other then they are "cool". I love role playing in the pirate world, but what might they want?

4. What does Gen Y think of when they think Pirates? Again, asking them they were "not sure", "did not know" or "could not think of anything". Other then they had seen a Pirates of the Caribbean Disney movie. They had never heard of Errol Flynn(no surprise) or any ' sailing ship' movie like The Bounty or Cutthroat Island...and had never seen Black Sails. And they don't read any books, so they have not read Treasure Island. So what are the Gen Y Pirate shows? Cartoons?

5. Bonus. They only want to play D&D 5E....but are there any good games out there that can work well with that? I have a bunch of Pirate games...in a box somewhere. But it's been a while. Are there any with a good social system? Anything new in the past five years or so? Like 'pirate honor' and 'reputation'. Maybe a good, workable economic system? I sort of remember an older game that had a good pirate honor and law honor system. I think it was a more 'Asian' type game, but don't recall the name. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

 

[pukunui]

First of all, I’m one of the oldest millennials at 42. The youngest are 27. That’s a big age range to be pigeonholing like that.

I get the impression from this post and your previous one that you enjoy taking an adversarial approach to DMing. I strongly suggest that you put in some effort to take a more collaborative approach instead.

While I’ll admit it can be frustrating when your players aren’t able or willing to articulate what they want, that doesn’t mean you need to dismiss them as clueless youngsters.

Sometimes people just struggle with being put on the spot. Also, since they don’t know you that well, they may not feel comfortable opening up to you.

Give them time to think about what they want to play and why. Ask them to send you pictures or links to web articles that illustrate what they think makes secret agents and pirates cool.

It’s fine if you want to come across as grandfatherly, but do it in a good-natured hapless old man way, not a grumpy “get off my lawn” / “kids these days” way.


If you end up going with the secret agent route, I’d suggest investing in a copy of Keys from the Golden Vault. I’d also suggest telling them politely that you don’t think their heavily combat-oriented character choices will be a good fit for a secret agent game, and then suggest some alternatives (like the mastermind and inquisitive rogue archetypes).

If you end up going with pirates, maybe suggest a more generic “adventure on the high seas” theme using the adventures, rules and tables from Ghosts of Saltmarsh.

In either case, if you’re afraid of not getting player buy-in, you need to do two things:

1) Make it explicitly clear that the players must make PCs willing to go on the adventures you offer them

2) Don’t ask them if they want to undertake a particular adventure. Give them a patron who assigns them missions (either a spy handler or a ship’s captain). Saying “no” isn’t an option because this is their job.

 

[Umbran]

2. ... So what are the Gen Y spy/secret agent shows? Cartoons?

Agents of SHIELD? Maybe Leverage?

4. ...So what are the Gen Y Pirate shows? Cartoons?

Oh, this one is easy - Pirates of the Caribbean.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Leverage, Spy X Family, the Bourne Movies, X-files, The Great Pretender, Technically John Wick / Red / Other Assassin Media.

It's a bit odd they don't know Chuck or Burn Notice. The obvious solution is to base it off Jackie Chan in The Tuxedo.

 

[bloodtide]

First of all, I’m one of the oldest millennials at 42. The youngest are 27. That’s a big age range to be pigeonholing like that.

I don't mean to start a generation war, but roughly every ten years or so the "shows people know" change. I don't really like the titles, but just say in general "people under 30".

I do find so many have not seen a lot of the shows like: Oz, The Sorpranos, Breaking Bad, The X-Files, Star Trek (any), Stargate(any), or Babylon 5. And the more "gamer like" shows of Fringe, Rome, Spartacus, Black Sails, Westworld, or Warehouse 13.

There TV shows are Riverdale (?), The Last of Us, Stranger Things, The Office, Parks and Rec, and the Mandlorian....but not Andor. That is what makes me wonder if there is a spy or pirate show from the last 20 years or so that maybe they watch?

While I’ll admit it can be frustrating when your players aren’t able or willing to articulate what they want, that doesn’t mean you need to dismiss them as clueless youngsters.

This is why I post. My default here would to just let the game unfold until their characters die and it ends. My younger Spelljamming group really wanted to spelljam, so they got through the "loose a character every session" phase without any bumps. I'm not so sure this new group will do that.

It’s fine if you want to come across as grandfatherly, but do it in a good-natured hapless old man way, not a grumpy “get off my lawn” / “kids these days” way.

I try to go for the Gandalf/Rastilin/Elminster of "I have frogotten more then you will ever know".

If you end up going with the secret agent route, I’d suggest investing in a copy of Keys from the Golden Vault. I’d also suggest telling them politely that you don’t think their heavily combat-oriented character choices will be a good fit for a secret agent game, and then suggest some alternatives (like the mastermind and inquisitive rogue archetypes).

If you end up going with pirates, maybe suggest a more generic “adventure on the high seas” theme using the adventures, rules and tables from Ghosts of Saltmarsh.

I do have Ghosts....don't think I ever opened the cover though. And I'll check out Keys.

 

[Clint_L]

I'm going to gently suggest that your first posts reads like you have a very condescending view of younger players and are making an awful lot of assumptions about people that you stated you don't really know.

I DM for tons of people younger than me. In general, younger people are smart and well-informed. Most that I meet are pretty good with pop culture references. I can't imagine any of them thinking that a pirate-themed campaign would involve "a merchant ship that put up no fight, and they got loot of like 200 barrels of pickled fish." I mean, that's just a weird idea - why would anyone want to play that campaign?

My current Grade 9 campaign is, in fact, pirate-themed. First, working for a patron they tracked down the source of raids on their patron's interests, which turned out to be a new pirate faction. Then they travelled to an established pirate outpost to try to learn more, having to prove themselves in a fighting put to get a bit of credibility. Then they had to find a sunken wreck to recover an artifact needed to infiltrate the island of this upstart pirate crew, which they are currently in the process of doing. Tomorrow, they will likely take on the nominal leader of these pirates, only to discover that his real master has another plan.

None of these concepts was difficult for Grade 9s to understand. I suggest that you are kind of over-thinking what "pirate" or "secret-agent" means in order to cast aspersions on your group's cultural knowledge for not being the same as yours. If you have, as it seems, such a low opinion of them, why are you going to be their DM?

 

[pukunui]

There TV shows are Riverdale (?),

Riverdale is based on the old Archie comics.

The Last of Us, Stranger Things, The Office, Parks and Rec, and the Mandlorian....but not Andor. That is what makes me wonder if there is a spy or pirate show from the last 20 years or so that maybe they watch?

Pirates of the Caribbean, Black Sails, Our Flag Means Death. Those are the main recent pirate franchises.

Not too sure about secret agent, but the 007 and Mission: Impossible franchises are still going, and then there’s stuff like Johnny English, Kingsman, Assassin’s Creed (and with AC: Black Flag, you’ve also got the pirates theme covered), and so on. Also anything with Jason Statham in it.

You’re going to have to ask your players what they like, though. Maybe ask them individually or stalk their social media and see if they’ve liked any specific movies or tv shows that might give you some inspiration.

I do have Ghosts....don't think I ever opened the cover though. And I'll check out Keys.

Ghosts presents a pretty decent framework for a sailing campaign. It gives you a fleshed out starting town, an opening adventure that can gift the party their own boat and HQ, and some decent rules for generating your own seafaring stories and scenarios. It even has rules to give PCs and NPC crew members things to do on a ship.

Golden Vault is themed around heists, but I think most of the adventures could easily be tweaked to be more about secret agent stuff. You’re not there to steal a thing but rather gather information or whatever. It also gives you the basis for a party patron in the form of the eponymous Golden Vault organisation.

Eberron is a good setting for both pirates and secret agents, and the 5e Eberron book introduced the party patron mechanics, one of which is a state spy agency (e.g. the King’s Dark Lanterns). I think Tasha’s includes some more generic rules for party patrons as well.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Based on what you've said there is much material from you to steal from given their limited experience with the content (movies and literature). Personally I'd go the Pirate route, so much to go on.

- privateers, pirate cove politics, smuggling, ghost ship, sea monsters, battling against natural elements, maps and secret treasure, artillery, uncharted waters, mysterious islands, material gathering, managing cargo, new cities/ports and cultures, heraldry...etc

With regards to naval combat you could slowly educate them with them having 1 task in battle as they begin learning about the dangers through colour (your descriptions as the battle plays out) - and as they experience more you off load more and more responsibilities on their characters.

 

[Charlaquin]

So, I have a new group and I find myself with some questions I'm hoping someone can answer.

So the players are all new to me as I've only known them a couple weeks. They are all younger then myself, so they all have a different view on things compared to me. I have a 5E Spelljammer game that they are all know each other. Some of those Spelljammer players convinced this group to stick with me. This group was previously a "goofy casual game with a Buddy DM". they have only ever played 5E D&D, and have no interest in any other game. As my game is a Hard Fun No DM Help type game, they had to agree to that and all my house rules. And they did.

So we did something of a session zero. Mostly they were making characters. They loved the part where I'd let them be any character they wanted. So they did not settle on "what" game they wanted......but two ideas were mentioned a lot. But I feel could be problems.

So the first idea is they might want to be "Secret Agents". And this is a common game idea I get from players. Though I don't think it will be a good fit for this group of newer players. As they were making characters they did not have must interest in "agent" like characters, and were "stuck" with the D&D 5E all combat characters. And I know this game will have the Mission Problem. As Secret Agents, they will be given a mission ("a quest"), but it won't be something they "want" to do. At best they will just turn down "all" Missions and the game will go nowhere, at worst they will drag themselves along something they don't want to do and the game will go nowhere. I can tell they are not the type of group that just takes ANY mission and makes a great game out of it or "does not care about the details" of what they do in the game.

So, how to avoid that?

You sure “know” a lot about how this group of people you’ve never played with play. Maybe try giving them a chance?

1. So what is the draw to being a Secret Agent? Even more so for younger gamers. I did ask them this, but no one could articulate and answer, other then they are "cool". For me the draw would be going on missions. You get the mission "steal the scroll" from a vault, you TAKE it. That is part of being a Secret Agent. For me. But if not random missions, what does a younger gamer think a Secret Agent game would be about?

Espionage. They want to sneak around, spy on people, steal top-secret documents, maybe do some assassinations, that kind of thing. There’s a good chance they want to use some nifty spy gadgets.

2. So what does Gen Y/Menlineals think of when they think Secret Agent? Again, asking them they were "not sure", "did not know" or "could not think of anything". When I mentioned 007, Borne and Mission Impossible they did say they watched "some". They, had never heard of Get Smart, Chuck, La Feem Nikita, Alias, Covert Affairs, Burn Notice, Homeland, Citidel, Old Man or Patriot. And they don't read any books. So what are the Gen Y spy/secret agent shows? Cartoons?

If they’re in their late twenties to mid thirties there’s a good chance they have fond memories of Spy Kids, Kim Possible, Totally Spies. For more adult-oriented media, maybe Burn Notice or Kingsmen. If they play video games, likely the Hitman series, maybe the Metal Gear series.

The second idea....is Pirates. And I feel this would not work out either. As they like "action" they sure don't want a classic pirate game where they would attack a merchant ship that put up no fight, and they got loot of like 200 barrels of pickled fish. But, also the "gold coast" of super overloaded treasure ships of....like 50,000 gold? And this is the big clash with D&D as they will expect huge tons of piles of gold coins. And then the magic items of just the captain are worth more then all the gold on the merchant ship. But if I do anything beyond the book....they will loose and have character death super quick. I know they are not ready for ship to ship combat or naval combat.

No, no, no. Strategy is nowhere near what they’re probably thinking of. Pirates is pretty much synonymous with swashbuckling action adventure. You’ll bore them to tears with naval strategy.

3. So again, what is the Gen Y draw for Pirates? I'm sure they don't want to do the classic pirate game of stagey. And they are sure not up to combat stratagem. I did ask them this, but no one could articulate and answer, other then they are "cool". I love role playing in the pirate world, but what might they want?

They may not know who Errol Flynn is, but that’s the stuff they’re probably looking for. Fencing, fighting, chases, escapes, torture, revenge, true love, miracles, and all other manner of derring-do. Good chance they want to follow a mysterious map to a secret, possibly magical island to find some sort of treasure, perhaps before some rival group of pirates do.

4. What does Gen Y think of when they think Pirates? Again, asking them they were "not sure", "did not know" or "could not think of anything". Other then they had seen a Pirates of the Caribbean Disney movie. They had never heard of Errol Flynn(no surprise) or any ' sailing ship' movie like The Bounty or Cutthroat Island...and had never seen Black Sails. And they don't read any books, so they have not read Treasure Island. So what are the Gen Y Pirate shows? Cartoons?

I mean, Pirates of the Carribian is 100% their benchmark. And you should probably watch at least the first three if you want to get a sense of what “pirates” means to them, if not more, because they get significantly more gonzo after the first one.

Also, like, just because they haven’t specifically seen the media you referenced, doesn’t actually mean they won’t be familiar with them. The tropes and conventions have worked their way into the cultural zeitgeist such that the players will likely recognize them when they see them, even if they don’t know specifically where they originated. That goes for secret agent media too, and, like every other genre. Us folks who grew up with the internet are constantly steeped in a mass media pop culture soup. We’re familiar with references to source material we’ve never actually seen, just through memetic osmosis.

5. Bonus. They only want to play D&D 5E....but are there any good games out there that can work well with that? I have a bunch of Pirate games...in a box somewhere. But it's been a while. Are there any with a good social system? Anything new in the past five years or so? Like 'pirate honor' and 'reputation'. Maybe a good, workable economic system? I sort of remember an older game that had a good pirate honor and law honor system. I think it was a more 'Asian' type game, but don't recall the name. Does that sound familiar to anyone?

Does it matter? If they only want to play D&D, they’re probably not going to care about whatever pirate or spy game you dig out of whatever box.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Humans of any generation are terrible at knowing and articulating what they want.

I would suggest you run what YOU want. Then at least one person is having a good time! Seriously, watch your players and see which bits they enjoy (smiling) - do more of that - and which bits they don't (glazed eyes) - do less of that.

If you want to take them at their word and run a Secret Agent campaign, I would suggest running Keys from the Golden Vault, which is a blatant Mission Impossible rip off. They will have seen the Tom Cruise movies even if they don't know the TV show.