Targeted Areas

[Velmont]

I'll have to take a look at it, but I like the principle of the idea. A good example would be an area attack centered on teh user, which is a speedster. It could just represeting him throwing a lot of object to everyone around him...

Now, I just need to take a look and make my mind if it worth one extra, or if it is too powerfull, it could be raise at a cost of 2 extra.

 

[hero4hire]

I vote yes on this with the stipulation of a keen eye towards power combos with Autofire and such.

When used in my tabletop game by itself seemed perfectly balanced compared to normal AoE due the numner of High Defense characters as oppesed to High Reflex characters.

 

[Hand of Vecna]

Normal Areas are basically shut down completely by Evasion or Improved Evasion) (note the 85% and 90% chances for nothing, which become 86% and 91% after I fix for my mistake on Bruised). Targeted Areas are not.

I'd say this is more a sign that Evasion as written is overpowered.

In M&M, Area effects are such that, if you fail the Reflex save, you suffer the full effect, but if you make the Reflex save, you suffer only half the effect. Thus, if hit by an Area Blast 10, if you fail the Reflex save (DC 20), you have to make a Toughness save as if hit by a Blast 10 (DC 25), but if you make the Reflex save, you make a Toughness save as if hit by only a Blast 5 (DC 20).

As written, Evasion (1pp) lets you take no damage from an Area effect if you make the Reflex save (though you still take full damage if you fail the Reflex save) -- fail the Reflex save, make a Toughness save against a Blast 10, but make it and you need not make any Toughness save. If you take Evasion twice (for 2pp), you still take no damage on a successful save, but only half damage on a failed save -- fail the Reflex save, make a Toughness save against only a Blast 5, but no Toughness save needed if you make the Reflex save.

Now, compare this to the Immunity power, where, for 30 ranks (30pp), you can be completely immune to anything requiring a Reflex save. If you take the Limited version (15pp), then you reduce the DC of any Reflex save by half. However, nowhere has it been written how this plays to Area Effect things (and my very brief search at ATT yielded nothing) -- my guess is that, in the full Immunity case, you'd be treated as if you'd automatically made the Reflex save, so would need to save against half the base effect (in the Area Blast 10 case, you'd be treated as if you'd automatically made the Reflex save so would only need to worry about making a Toughness save against a Blast 5). In the case of the Limited Immunity, it would reduce the DC of the Reflex save, thus making it easier to avoid the full force of the base effect.

So, to summarize:

• No Evasion/Immunity: Either take full effect or half effect, based on outcome of Reflex save.
• Evasion (1pp): Either take full effect or no effect, based on outcome of Reflex save.
• Evasion 2 (2pp): Either take half effect or no effect, based on outcome of Reflex save.
• Immunity 30 (Reflex Saves; Limited to Half Effect) (15pp): Either take full effect or half effect, based on outcome of Reflex save, but Reflex save will be easier to make.
• Immunity 30 (Reflex saves) (30pp): (guess) Automatically suffer only half the base effect.

Evasion 2 (2pp) actually seems better than Immunity (30pp), since there'll be a chance you suffer no effect. 'Course, if I'm wrong, and the full Immunity is just that -- that you are completely immune to anything requiring a Reflex save, and suffer no effect -- then the Immunity is better than Evasion 2... but I'm not sure if it should be 28pp better.

 

[Rystil Arden]

The Immunity indeed makes you completely immune to anything that offers a Reflex save.

 

[Raylis]

I liked this when I first read it in UP and I still like this now.

YES

 

[rgordona]

NO

I'm just not sure about this one, sorry. I think it is thematically strong, but I am not convinced by the implementation. (Very close decision.)

I was very tempted to vote yes simply because it reduces the usefulness of evasion which is probably too cheap but eventually decided that was a stupid mentality (Trying to fix a broken mechanic by breaking something else.)

 

[Hand of Vecna]

The Immunity indeed makes you completely immune to anything that offers a Reflex save.

Where's it say that? I'm honestly curious, since both Ultimate Power and Steve Kenson say that with Immunity, you're assumed to always make the save (so with Area effects, Immunity/Reflex saves means you always make the initial Reflex save, but you'd still need to make the damage save, at half the effect's original rank).

 

[Rystil Arden]

Where's it say that? I'm honestly curious, since both Ultimate Power and Steve Kenson say that with Immunity, you're assumed to always make the save (so with Area effects, Immunity/Reflex saves means you always make the initial Reflex save, but you'd still need to make the damage save, at half the effect's original rank).

It's the wording of the "Under the Hood: Immunity" and the phrasing of the text, plus the use of the word 'Immune'. Admittedly, it does not directly say either way, but it doesn't make any sense. Otherwise you're telling me that a Mindless Construct that's immune to Will Saves will not be immune to a Will Save (Half) Area Mind Blast (an Area Blast with the Extra where you swap the Reflex Save for a Will Save).

 

[rgordona]

Well it likely would be as you would probably change the toughness save into a will save too. But if not then no I think it would still have to make a toughness save at half rank.

The fact it is mindless means that the nasty mental tuning of the blast has no effect so it is automatically half damage; just as the area effect is half damage or The Giant Brain who makes his will save.

Imunity toughness, gets you out of the damage. whether you make the reflex save or not.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Well it likely would be as you would probably change the toughness save into a will save too. But if not then no I think it would still have to make a toughness save at half rank.

The fact it is mindless means that the nasty mental tuning of the blast has no effect so it is automatically half damage; just as the area effect is half damage or The Giant Brain who makes his will save.

Imunity toughness, gets you out of the damage. whether you make the reflex save or not.

I'm pretty certain that there is no such thing as Immunity Toughness.

Also, what about a killer rapid disease that rips you up from the inside out? It's built from an Area Blast (Fort instead of Reflex for Half) with the Contagious Extra, the Poison Extra, and the Secondary Effect (another Blast) Extra. Shouldn't creatures with no biology who are immune to all Fortitude Saves be immune to the disease?