D&D 5E Tasha's and optimization

[UngeheuerLich]

1. Any class character except Barbarian is generally better investing in Dexterity instead of Strength. Even Paladins and Artificers are better with a high dexterity than with a high strength. In this respect Tortle is a "fix" that allows you to optimize in the wrong direction.

I reject that premise. Neither from a theoretical point of view, nor from play experience are dex based characters stronger than str ones, except if they are focussing solely on ranged or are rogues/light or no armor users.

Edit: to counter the initiative argument..
If you are a melee character with extra attack, in some typical scenarios you actually want lower initiative, because if you are 60 ft apart (dark vision range), it is better that the wizard first casts the big area spells and then you want the enemy to come close first, so you can then use your movement and extra attack feature.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Tortles are the best for most classes really. Anybody who is not a Dex based class, but needs it for AC is better off as a Tortle. Even a Barbarian is better off not having to use a 14 in Dex to make their medium armour work properly. Same with Artificer, Valour Bards who use Strength, pretty much any druid. Most classes really.

The problem here, of course, isn't the Tortle. It's making Dex far too important for almost everyone. Even for a tortle dexterity still affects initiative, finesse weapons, one of the most important saves, and multiple skills; even for non-dex characters it might be more important than even Con. The tortle single-handedly makes clumsy adventurers competitive.

@UngeheuerLich @ECMO3 I'd say that STR primary classes (fighter, barbarian, paladin) can hold their own - and no the paladin isn't better with high dex than STR although rapier-and-shield is a viable (if low damage) build. But strength is one of the two stats that people routinely dump because it's very little use when it's not your primary stat (the other being Int). Just about every non-tortle adventurer that's not wearing plate armour has a good Dex and Dex 14 is exceptionally common in my experience.

Other than the tortle it gives a new lease of life to mountain dwarves (I'm not honestly worried about medium armour prof). Oh, and the yuan-ti pureblood is even more broken than before as you can give advantage to all saves vs magic to an actual tank.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

@UngeheuerLich @ECMO3 I'd say that STR primary classes (fighter, barbarian, paladin) can hold their own - and no the paladin isn't better with high dex than STR although rapier-and-shield is a viable (if low damage) build. But strength is one of the two stats that people routinely dump because it's very little use when it's not your primary stat (the other being Int). Just about every non-tortle adventurer that's not wearing plate armour has a good Dex and Dex 14 is exceptionally common in my experience.

14 dex is not a bad Idea, since it is the sweet spot for efficiency in medium armor. And str does not do too much if you are not in melee.
This is ok. I just reject the premise that all classes besides barbarian are better served with high dex than str.

Also wis is much more important for most classes than int and Con is often more important than charisma.

Edit: str however, if you take encumbrance seriously, is dangerous as a dump stat. Also str athletics checks are much more common than dex checks besides stealth. And if you have to roll them, you are not speaking about one round of surprise or half damage, but drowning, falling, being swallowed and so on.

 

[Lyxen]

14 dex is not a bad Idea, since it is the sweet spot for efficiency in medium armor. And str does not do too much if you are not in melee.
This is ok. I just reject the premise that all classes besides barbarian are better served with high dex than str.

Very simply, given that they give you exactly the same benefits in terms of efficiency, but that Dex also gives you a much more frequently used save-type bonus and a bonus to Int, how do you reject it ? Yes, these are not "all the time" bonuses but they are still important.

Don't get me wrong, I really disliked paladins in light armor and wielding rapiers...

 

[Fenris-77]

STR dumping is less attractive when you're actually tracking encumbrance. Someone needs to be able to actually carry all that treasure.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Very simply, given that they give you exactly the same benefits in terms of efficiency, but that Dex also gives you a much more frequently used save-type bonus and a bonus to Int, how do you reject it ? Yes, these are not "all the time" bonuses but they are still important.

Don't get me wrong, I really disliked paladins in light armor and wielding rapiers...

Str saving throws are more comman and more crucial for classes with high hp.
Some more damage is often less disabling than being grappled, swallowed and so on.

Also being dex based is very taxing. You practically have to bump it to 20 if you want to stay on top with AC.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

STR dumping is less attractive when you're actually tracking encumbrance. Someone needs to be able to actually carry all that treasure.

But there's nothing to spend the gold on, amirite?

See, that's how much 5e has privileged the GOD STAT of dexterity. Not only do they give it all the bonuses, all the good saves, all the initiative, all ur bases, they've even made gold worthless so you don't need to carry it..

My groups have asked that gold be replaced with paper currency, so they can light it on fire.

5e's motto- if you're strong enough to carry a rapier, you're strong enough to win 5e 4eva.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

STR dumping is less attractive when you're actually tracking encumbrance. Someone needs to be able to actually carry all that treasure.

I also use STR to calculate the short/long range of thrown and ranged weapons. So with even with a high dex, you actually have to invest a little in STR or you'll be shooting the monsters from 10 feet aways from 'em.

I also have heavier shields that are really more defensive against ranged attacks, but requires a STR of 15.

Added to encumbrance, as you said, and you have a more relevant stat.

I do the same with INT (more language/tools)

 

[Lyxen]

Str saving throws are more comman and more crucial for classes with high hp.
Some more damage is often less disabling than being grappled, swallowed and so on.

Grappling is almost automatic for monsters following some attacks, right ? And after that, it's either Str or Dex to escape, so I'm not sure that there is an advantage there.

And honestly, in all the games I've been in, the Dex vs. Str ratio of saves has always been 10 to 1. If you are front-line, you need to take Athletics or Acrobatics, but both serve equally here.

And grappling is totally inefficient as a character except in very special cases.

Also being dex based is very taxing. You practically have to bump it to 20 if you want to stay on top with AC.

This does not matter, since it's your primary stat, you will be doing this.

This is my main complaint with it, actually, before 5e, there were only a few classes where Str was more important than Dex, but in 5e. even those classes can be Dex-based instead, and are often better off. Not always by a large amount, but at least a bit.

 

[Fenris-77]

And grappling is totally inefficient as a character except in very special cases.

I might disagree here, but only with some attention paid to building for grappling. With some attention paid it can be really effective. Not a huge deal in terms of the overall conversation here though.