D&D 5E Telekinesis Is A Bad Spell, For The Game

[pukunui]

If you want a game where the PCs are pretty much supers right out of the gate, start at 15th level and hugely slow down the advancement such that it still takes just as long to get to 20th. Or - and yes I'm going to say this - use a different system; as D&D is and always has been centered on variants of the zero-to-hero path.

I don’t mind the zero-to-hero stuff, and I don’t mind that some stuff is “level gated”.

What I’m starting to mind is the daily/encounter limit stuff … like how a druid can only wildshape twice per rest and an arcane archer can only use their arcane shot twice per rest and all that.

I’d love for PCs to have a recharge mechanic like the monsters have. Last time I ran 4e, I let PCs recarche spent encounter powers on a 5 or 6 and spent dailies on a 6. Worked a treat and didn’t really overpower anything. But admittedly it was simpler to do that with 4e.

I suppose a quick and dirty rule for 5e might be that a short rest ability recharges on a 5 or 6, while a long rest ability recharges on a 6.

In terms of spells, I suppose Pact Magic slots would count as short rest abilities, while regular spell slots would count as long rest ones.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Grasp
1 Action
2nd level spell
Evocation
Concentration, up to 1 minute
S
You attempt to grasp a creature in telekinetic energy and hold it captive. As an action, choose one creature you can see within 60 feet of you. The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be grappled by you until your concentration ends or until the target leaves your reach, which is 60 feet for this grapple.
The grappled target can escape by succeeding on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your spell DC.

While a target is grappled in this manner, you create one of the following effects as an action:

- Crush. The target takes 2d6 bludgeoning damage.
- Move. You move the target up to 10 feet. You can move it in the air and hold it there. It falls if the grapple ends.

When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage of Crush increases by 1d6 per slot level and the forced movement of Move increases by 10 ft per slot level.

The spell ''exist'' in the form of the discarded mystic's disciplines. But as always, WotC threw the baby with the bathwater when they dumped the mystic; there was some good ideas in there.

 

[Corinnguard]

What might be needed here is something like Pathfinder 1st edition's Kineticist class for 5e. Kineticist Elements – Paizo, Inc. – d20PFSRD You start out with offensive and defensive telekinetic abilities, and as you level up, you gain other telekinetic abilities.

Another alternative is to play an Esper from Steampunkette's Paranormal Power for 5e and A5e and pick up the Telekinesis discipline.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

So, I don't mean that it's poorly designed.

The problem is that it is vastly too high level, and I'm pretty sure that this is why various lower level telekinetic powers in the game...well, suck. Really badly.

The Telekinetic feat is terrible as a feat. Great. Invisible mage hand, greater range on it if I dedicate a cantrip to it from another source, and a...a ranged shove attack. A ranged shove, really, not a shove attack. A very weak one, at that.

The Psi Warrior is supposedly meant to let you play a character like Darth Vader, but it fails utterly. Literally just give it Move Object from star wars saga edition with a new name. Like...what the hell is this?

There is no telekinetic monk!? How!? The closest we have is a spirit projections monk with glowing magic arms.

Telekinesis is a huge part of like...tons of fantasy properties. Like a lot. It's very common, and it's usually not something you have to really master magic in order to do. Why are we waiting until level 9 for anything better than move light object and some abilities that can like, throw a rock or push a guy 5ft.

The only two solutions I have are to do one of:

• remove the telekinesis spell completely, and allow other sources to do what it does, at lower levels with scaling
• Make it a level 1 spell, and scale it from the size of stuff you can yeet with catapult all the way up to where you can move around multiple huge creatures at once because you cast the spell at level 9

Am I the only one bothered by this? Anyone got other ideas?

This kind of reminds me of the other thread that talked about crappy spells and someone suggested spells that change the higher they are cast: 1st level is feather fall, 2nd level is levitate 3rd level is fly. But they are all the same spell. Telekinesis could work really well like that: giving it different abilities the higher it is cast. In fact, at higher levels, it should give short term flight.

More and more, I feel like you could end end up with more flavourful spells, with better scaling, if they were designed that way.

 

[Corinnguard]

This kind of reminds me of the other thread that talked about crappy spells and someone suggested spells that change the higher they are cast: 1st level is feather fall, 2nd level is levitate 3rd level is fly. But they are all the same spell. Telekinesis could work really well like that: giving it different abilities the higher it is cast. In fact, at higher levels, it should give short term flight.

More and more, I feel like you could end end up with more flavourful spells, with better scaling, if they were designed that way.

I was the one who suggested that spells change their effects as you upcast them. I used the Flight spell from the Starfinder RPG as an example. Spells - Archives of Nethys: Starfinder RPG Database

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I was the one who suggested that spells change their effects as you upcast them. I used the Flight spell from the Starfinder RPG as an example. Spells - Archives of Nethys: Starfinder RPG Database

Maybe I'm derailing the thread by getting into it here - I should do that in the other thread - but I feel this would work really well with scaling damage spells.

Pick an elemental spell: shadow, radiant, necrotic, fire, thunder etc... Scale the damage equally among the levels every type of spell does similar damage but then add riders to these spells as you level them, giving each damage type their own unique and useful niche.

To bring it back to the original thread: Telekinesis-type effects could even happen when you cast Force Damage spells(like pushing/shoving, tripping, etc..).

Obviously, you'd still have pure utility spells that don't do damage - like a pure telekinesis that is separate from any damage spells - that give you more control.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Making more effective lower-level telepathies and telekinesi spells would end up making the whole Psionics power source even more unnecessary. Aren't people constantly complaining that Wizards already can do everything, and now we're going to give them the entire Psionics power suite to 3rd, 4th, 5th level characters too?

I mean I don't actually expect WotC to create a Psion any time soon... but at least there is space available for them in terms of what they could do that other casters couldn't, so I don't see WotC just handing that stuff over to the Wizard for no reason. Instead it'll be up to 3rd parties to make those spells and for players to just have to use 3rd party stuff if they want lower-level telepathy and telekinesis that badly.

 

[Krachek]

DnD is very bad at emulating a specific fantasy universe.
DnD mechanic are very narrow, and thus hit points, spells, turn base, level, shape their own fantasy universe. Some DM even build their own world according to precise DnD mechanics and get fooled on edition change.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Yes, it occasionally bothers me too, but not enough to want to do anything about it. I'm afraid I don't have any alternative ideas.

I just wish WotC wasn't so conservative with their design in general. While I still like 5e, I would love an "unleashed" version where they crank things up to 11 and just let the PCs do all the cool things instead of limiting them so hard.

Conservative? TSR-era players look at the current ruleset and are like, WUT?

5e made the following bargain- spellcasting would be ubiquitous, but less powerful. To give you an example of that, let's look at Telekinesis and compare the 1e and 5e versions of the spell.

In both 5e and 1e, Telekinesis is a 5th level spell. In both 5e and 1e, you gain that spell at 9th level (Wizards/MUs). But that's where the similarities STOP.

In 1e, 9th level is an accomplishment. In 5e, 9th level is just part of the progression (the "sweet spot" or Tier 2). But more importantly, look at the spells-

When you first cast the spell as a 9th level MU in 1e, the range is 9" (90' indoors, 90 yards outdoors). Duration is 11 rounds (11 minutes). You can lift 2250 g.p (225 pounds). You can move something 2" the first round (20' indoors, 20 yards outdoors) per round, doubling every round. Which means that by the end of the tenth round, you would be moving an object at 1,024" per round, the maximum velocity. And there is no save. None. Nada.
And note that as you increase in level, your range increases, the amount you lift increases, and the duration increases, all without having to "uplevel" the spell.

In 5e, OTOH, the range is 60' regardless of level. You get to move objects up to 1,000 ft., but only 30 ft. If you try to move a creature or an object worn or carried by a creature, they get to contest it.


The 5e spell is fine. But I don't think I need to explain why the 1e spell, if employed properly, could be absolutely devastating in so many different ways. The difference, of course, is that 1e had a completely different paradigm; in that version of D&D, spellcasting was rare, but spectacular.

The problem is that we constantly have the following two debates:
1. I like martials. I want martials to be cooler. Please give martial MOAR POWERZ.
2. I like wizards. I appreciate that they can go pew pew pew with cantrips and that they have all this utility, but I want them to be SPECTACULAR!!!!!

Higher-level spells in 5e are fine, even pretty good. But they are toned done, because you can't give spellcasters everything always. IMO.

 

[Stormonu]

Agreed. Just let us do the thing. Before 15th level or whatever.

A bigt part of my issue is that all the lower level stuff is yeeting, rather than being able to just like, hold stuff in the air, move it out of the way safely, drop it on someone, etc.

If that's the case, why not just refluff mage hand and unseen servant <edit: or Tenser's Floating Disc)>? On the latter, possibly give it a "at higher levels" that gives it more strength.