D&D 5E Test of High Level 5E: Design 4 or 5 lvl 13 PCs for 6 to 8 encounter adventuring day
hawkeyefan
Legend
The rough terrain and the opening positions would have made it difficult, for sure, but I would have attempted to move the party in the direction of the cave exit as much as possible if battle broke out. Absent a chance at diplomacy, I agree that battle was pretty much a given, and under the circumstances, it would be best to commit to the battle 100%.
I don't know if I agree that there was no room for negotiating with the giants, but other than that, I think I agree with how you view the situation. Escape in this situation without somehow negotiating with the giants would be incredibly difficult and costly.
I would have attempted to convince the giants to let us go, and then if need be to intimidate them, and if those did not work, then I would have annhiliated them.
Maxperson
Morkus from Orkus
Not that many pages. The main issue is that he wasn't playing optimally at all. Enough never even enters the picture. It's a fine way to play, but doesn't even begin to touch on the issue that OP was asking for help with.
Greg Benage
Legend
That's funny (I gave you a "laugh") but what the thread really could have used was five pages of you, Flamestrike and Celtavian smoothing things over and running the experiment as planned. None of that is BI's fault -- to the contrary, at least he was willing to take the hook and participate. It's just that he isn't the kind of player, or creating the kinds of characters, that were presented in the original challenge. The experiment doesn't have much value as an experiment if it's going to be played this way.
I didn't put any work into it so I don't have any skin in the game. I'm just kvetching because I actually come down on the side of you and Flamestrike in this debate and wanted to see it played out. So anyway, have fun with the roleplaying. It's very entertaining.
ThirdWizard
First Post
This wasn't supposed to be fun, so much as informative. You're joining something people were taking seriously and laughing it up at their expense.
iserith
Magic Wordsmith
I've performed my role (verifying encounters meet guidelines) and the debate thread is open to continue useful discussion on the topic.
There was room to negotiate. We didn't speak Giant. Would have made life much easier.
hawkeyefan
Legend
I thought so. I took what you were saying to imply that you didn't think diplomacy was an option. If I misunderstood, that's my bad.
Someone...the diviner, I believe...had a tongues spell. I mentioned this in the other thread. The whole scenario could have likely been resolved with the casting of that one spell. The bard has a +14 to persuasion, if I remember correctly, so if she could communicate with them, I would expect her to be able to convince the giants to let the party go unchallenged.
I don't know if that goes against the parameter of the challenge, though. I didn't take the exercise to be about combat specifically, but maybe I misunderstood.
Flamestrike
Legend
It's entirely in line with the challenge. It's whether or not a 13th level party can be challenged via a 6-8 [medium to hard] encounters in an adventuring day. Its not just the individual encounters that we need to worry about; its the bigger picture of the entire adventure. Thats where the challenge lies.
Key to this challenge is expending as few resources as possible. If you can talk your way (or sneak your way) past encounters without having to enter combat (which is very resource intensive) then you make all your subsequent encounters that adventuring day easier.
DnD is on a fundamental level a resource management game. In this test, the party are being asked to overcome a standard adventuring day using the DMG guidelines. If you can overcome a combat encounter using just a tounges spell and a skill check (saving your 3rd, 4th and 5th level slots for later on in the day) its a massive win for the party.
Flamestrike
Legend
Encounter 2:
Encounter environment: The entry room to the dugeon demi-plane of blackrazor. As noted above, all walls and floors are made of a near indestructable black stone that eminates a gloomy light. Vison is reduced to 30' for creatures without darkvision, and 60 or 120' (as appropraite) for creatures with darkvision. Regardless, all visibility is reduces to dim light (advantage on stealth checks). Devils sight is unaffected and works normally. Treat this as a 9th level spell effect. The demipalne is not connected to the ethereal plane, so ethereal travel is not possible.
The above encounter conditions persist for the remaining encounters.
The room is 40' wide (N-S) and 70' long (E-W). A black portal is on the middle of the eastern wall - it is through this portal that the PCs arrive. A 10' wide coridoor extends onwards into the dungeon from the centre of the west wall. The room slopes gently upwards towards the western exit.
Encounter conditions: This is the entry room to the demiplane. PCs who step into the vortex outside appear in the demiplane infront of the nearest empty space near the portal on the east wall. As noted above, its possible that a PC may send a familiar in to scout the demiplane first in which case the Slaadi kill it (leaving the PC unaware due to the fact it happens on a different plane) or possibly the PCs may enter one at a time... this could lead to a very challenging encounter if they do so. The DM should giver the PCs ample time to enter the demiplane as a group; a PC entering on his own could be quickly overwhelmed.
Creatures: 2 Death slaads (beings allied to the entity Blackrazor aeons ago) have recently plane shifted into this chamber. They currently lurk on either side of the western exit of the room. They are invisible and communicate to each other with telepathy.
Compare the passive perception of any PC entering this room with the Slaads stealth DC (17; including advantage from the dim light). A PC that notices them sees two faint shimmerings in the gloom of the chamber and is not surprised on the first round of combat.
The Slaadi instantly initiate combat with fireballs, repeating this tactic on turn two. If the Slaad remain unengaged on turn 3, one uses major image to create illusion of another death Slaadi adjacent to any obvious spellcasters or ranged characters as a distraction (a PC watching this tactic can make a DC 15 Arcana check to notice the ruse and realise that Slaadi are masters of illusion and not of summoning magic. A PC that fights an illusory salad gains a DC 15 investigation check on a successful attack that strikes the slaad to also notice the ruse). The other slaad either closes to melee or drops a cloudkill on the party. These creatures of chaos cannot be bargained with, pursue any PCs that leave the room (using fly if needed, and invisibilty) and fight to the death.
Adjusted difficulty 17700 XP (Hard). XP to award: 11,800
Treasure: None.
Encounter environment: The entry room to the dugeon demi-plane of blackrazor. As noted above, all walls and floors are made of a near indestructable black stone that eminates a gloomy light. Vison is reduced to 30' for creatures without darkvision, and 60 or 120' (as appropraite) for creatures with darkvision. Regardless, all visibility is reduces to dim light (advantage on stealth checks). Devils sight is unaffected and works normally. Treat this as a 9th level spell effect. The demipalne is not connected to the ethereal plane, so ethereal travel is not possible.
The above encounter conditions persist for the remaining encounters.
The room is 40' wide (N-S) and 70' long (E-W). A black portal is on the middle of the eastern wall - it is through this portal that the PCs arrive. A 10' wide coridoor extends onwards into the dungeon from the centre of the west wall. The room slopes gently upwards towards the western exit.
Encounter conditions: This is the entry room to the demiplane. PCs who step into the vortex outside appear in the demiplane infront of the nearest empty space near the portal on the east wall. As noted above, its possible that a PC may send a familiar in to scout the demiplane first in which case the Slaadi kill it (leaving the PC unaware due to the fact it happens on a different plane) or possibly the PCs may enter one at a time... this could lead to a very challenging encounter if they do so. The DM should giver the PCs ample time to enter the demiplane as a group; a PC entering on his own could be quickly overwhelmed.
Creatures: 2 Death slaads (beings allied to the entity Blackrazor aeons ago) have recently plane shifted into this chamber. They currently lurk on either side of the western exit of the room. They are invisible and communicate to each other with telepathy.
Compare the passive perception of any PC entering this room with the Slaads stealth DC (17; including advantage from the dim light). A PC that notices them sees two faint shimmerings in the gloom of the chamber and is not surprised on the first round of combat.
The Slaadi instantly initiate combat with fireballs, repeating this tactic on turn two. If the Slaad remain unengaged on turn 3, one uses major image to create illusion of another death Slaadi adjacent to any obvious spellcasters or ranged characters as a distraction (a PC watching this tactic can make a DC 15 Arcana check to notice the ruse and realise that Slaadi are masters of illusion and not of summoning magic. A PC that fights an illusory salad gains a DC 15 investigation check on a successful attack that strikes the slaad to also notice the ruse). The other slaad either closes to melee or drops a cloudkill on the party. These creatures of chaos cannot be bargained with, pursue any PCs that leave the room (using fly if needed, and invisibilty) and fight to the death.
Adjusted difficulty 17700 XP (Hard). XP to award: 11,800
Treasure: None.
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