D&D 5E The Bard: A missed opportunity.

[Sailor Moon]

Metagaming? Why wouldn't someone trained in a skill be able to estimate how hard a task in that particular area be for him or her? Why wouldn't a skilled combatant be able to judge the skill of an opponent after engaging or witnessing said opponent engage in combat? I see these as things that c.an be assesed and determined by the character in the fantasy world... I don't really consider it metagaming but to each their own.

But it is metagaming no matter how you consider it. Sure knowledges can reveal certain things like weaknesses, but they have never revealed things like AC, saves, and DC's.

 

[Alessandro Guarita]

There is a lot of opinions here. And I take the risk to say something that someone already said.

The big advantage for using a spell system is that this prove better as the system grows. A new book can add 3 bards spells and you have 3 new power/opportunities to your character, while a "song system" can't grow this way. And with the Magical Secrets this is even more true since any spell added to any class grows your repertoire.

I liked the bard. This is the class that I would play on Adventures League. A human bard with the Actor feat and Charlatan background. A true liar

 

[Johnny Angel]

But it is metagaming no matter how you consider it. Sure knowledges can reveal certain things like weaknesses, but they have never revealed things like AC, saves, and DC's.

So, your complaint is that you have no way of knowing whether you're wasting your inspiration if you insist on ignoring the numbers right in front of you? That's not metagaming, it's just gaming. You make rational decisions based on numbers available to you. That you the player are making decisions based on numbers your character can't see is the nature of the game. Or do you actually go through a lot of hand-waving in your game like "The magical dwemer on the sword is greater than on the cleric's mace, but less than that on the dwarf's axe"? Because most of us just write down the plusses.

 

[Sailor Moon]

So, your complaint is that you have no way of knowing whether you're wasting your inspiration if you insist on ignoring the numbers right in front of you? That's not metagaming, it's just gaming. You make rational decisions based on numbers available to you. That you the player are making decisions based on numbers your character can't see is the nature of the game. Or do you actually go through a lot of hand-waving in your game like "The magical dwemer on the sword is greater than on the cleric's mace, but less than that on the dwarf's axe"? Because most of us just write down the plusses.

I'm not complaining about it. I am merely stating that you aren't supposed to know a creature's AC, DC, etc... If you were, then the extra stipulation on the bard's inspiration ability wouldn't be there. It can be a big deal when you don't know the target number. Imaro was basically saying that his players will have those target numbers memorized and will know whether or not to apply the extra dice granted. Doing that actually makes that part of the rule null and void. That is metagaming and that is what I am complaining about.

 

[Sailor Moon]

There is a lot of opinions here. And I take the risk to say something that someone already said.

The big advantage for using a spell system is that this prove better as the system grows. A new book can add 3 bards spells and you have 3 new power/opportunities to your character, while a "song system" can't grow this way. And with the Magical Secrets this is even more true since any spell added to any class grows your repertoire.

I liked the bard. This is the class that I would play on Adventures League. A human bard with the Actor feat and Charlatan background. A true liar

Mind explaining how a "song system" can't grow?

 

[Alessandro Guarita]

Mind explaining how a "song system" can't grow?

I didn't say that. I explained that a spell systems grows better.


For a "song system" grow, it'll be release on a very specific book (dedicated to the bard, for example) and thus the options will be lower. On the other hand, a spell system grows easily, specially because a lot of spells are cross class. So, when a book dedicated to wizards are released, the bard grows, too. And since the bard now have Magic Secret it'll will grow a lot because the bard can add any spell for any class.


See the 3.x supplements, for example. Almost all supplement has new spells, even the ones that isn't entirely dedicated to players.

 

[Imaro]

I'm not complaining about it. I am merely stating that you aren't supposed to know a creature's AC, DC, etc... If you were, then the extra stipulation on the bard's inspiration ability wouldn't be there. It can be a big deal when you don't know the target number. Imaro was basically saying that his players will have those target numbers memorized and will know whether or not to apply the extra dice granted. Doing that actually makes that part of the rule null and void. That is metagaming and that is what I am complaining about.

No that's not what I said... I said my players, like their characters, will have some idea of the difficulty concerning certain actions... I did not say they will always know the exact DC

Even telling someone whether they succeeded or not doesn't relay exact DC's.

 

[Johnny Angel]

I'm not complaining about it. I am merely stating that you aren't supposed to know a creature's AC, DC, etc... If you were, then the extra stipulation on the bard's inspiration ability wouldn't be there. It can be a big deal when you don't know the target number. Imaro was basically saying that his players will have those target numbers memorized and will know whether or not to apply the extra dice granted. Doing that actually makes that part of the rule null and void. That is metagaming and that is what I am complaining about.

The players don't have to already know the target numbers. The range of likely target numbers is pretty well constrained by game design. At 1st level you know you're not going to be asked to roll a any checks with DCs less than 10, and few enough beyond 15. If an NPC is described to you as wearing splint mail and carrying a shield, you are supposed to pretend you don't know that adds up to a 19 AC? Even if you didn't, because you play a mage or something and never contemplated the armor table, you'll start ranging in on the target number pretty quickly as you witness hits and misses. You don't have to memorize the Monster Manual or the armor charts to start understanding what numbers you're trying to hit just from not being busy playing Flappy Birds on your phone.

Considering all the other things these new rules have loosened up on, it's all the more absurd that they insist on keeping target numbers a secret. You could say that it prevents meta-gaming, but it actually encourages a different kind of meta-gaming which is mathematically more complex -- wrapping your head around the likelihood that a blind expenditure of a limited resource of random value will do you any good. People under those constraints are going to spend a lot more time thinking about numbers than people who just know what number they have to hit. The blind numbers only add an extra layer of meta-gaming where open numbers would call much less attention to themselves. It's not that it's terrible to have the players sweating that gamble not knowing if it'll go to waste. That kind of resource management can make a good game, but that game is further down the spectrum toward meta-gaming than one in which players can see the possibilities more clearly, make a decision and move on.