The Bar'ds Nuclear Option

[RUMBLETiGER]

The Fascinate effect lasts as long as the Bard plays, concentrates, and as long as the target is in hearing range.

As a DM, I'd play it like this:

Bard fascinates dinosaurs. They sit, calm and mesmerized.

The party walks away as the Bard plays.

The party walks outside of the hearing range of the dinos. Dinos shake their heads and snap out of the stupor. Still hungry, they sniff the air. They remember that food just walked that way. They pursue.

Depending upon how fast the party is traveling, they'd have a pack of hungry dino's following behind them a minute or two later, and the encounter repeats.

As a DM, I award full xp for resolving an encounter in a creative way.... the first time. If you were to fascinate your way out of every encounter, I'd provide significantly reduced xp for each consecutive 0-challenge encounter resolution.

This was a bunch of unintelligent dinosaurs. Getting past them shouldn't have been that hard anyway.

You should have tamed them, which would have been awesome. If I were the DM, I would have had them follow you around while you played.

I second this. In a gaming world where Dinosaurs exist, PC's should always make them into pets. Always.

Even without your bard, that encounter would have gone nowhere. Dinosaurs simply aren't intelligent enough to pose a threat to the heroes.

I also second this. There's any number of ways one could have neutralized this challenge at high levels, this is the issue with high level games.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

You should have tamed them, which would have been awesome. If I were the DM, I would have had them follow you around while you played.

I had that happen in a campaign I ran last weekend. The PCs clashed with some messed-up homunculi (including a pair of iron defenders [dogs]). One PC ended up taking control of one of them, which was helpful because the player of the paladin wasn't there that day, and they needed a defender-analogue.

On the other hand, for a more mechanical solution, you need to change the DC for the fascinate ability. Make it 10 + half the bard's level + his Charisma modifier.

This is more rational.

I also second this. There's any number of ways one could have neutralized this challenge at high levels, this is the issue with high level games.

In an Eberron game, my wizard PC wanted to just Glitterdust a golem and walk by it, but the other PCs insisted on killing it, since we'd have to walk past it to get back outside the dungeon. It wasn't all that high-level, the issue, IMO, is that a golem has no "agency" or agenda.

 

[Starfox]

Wasn't the save DC changed in 3.5, and again in Pathfinder? Having the Perform roll be the DC of a saving throw is so obviously wrong that the editors caught it.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It was certainly fixed in Pathfinder.

Distraction (Su): At 1st level, a bard can use his performance to counter magic effects that depend on sight. Each round of the Distraction, he makes a Perform (act, comedy, dance, or oratory) skill check. Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself) that is affected by an illusion (pattern) or illusion (figment) magical attack may use the bard’s Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check result proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the Distraction is already under the effect of a non-instantaneous illusion (pattern) or illusion (figment) magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it sees the Distraction, but it must use the bard’s Perform check result for the save. Distraction does not work on effects that don’t allow saves. Distraction relies on visual components.

Fascinate (Su): At 1st level, a bard can use his performance to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and capable of paying attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creatures affected. The Distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard has attained beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with this ability.

Each creature within range receives a Will save (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Cha modifier) to negate the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and observes the performance for as long as the bard continues to maintain it. While fascinated, a target takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any potential threat to the target allows the target to make a new saving throw against the effect. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect.

Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability. Fascinate relies on audible and visual components in order to function.

Link: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard#TOC-Fascinate-Su- (note that internal "link" might not work, and you may need to scroll down)

 

[Starfox]

All this said, I love that the game includes other options for bypassing encounters than "Do 100% damage".

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

All this said, I love that the game includes other options for bypassing encounters than "Do 100% damage".

I completely agree. I like to reward creative thinking. I don't reward repetitive, avoidant solutions that result in no interesting gameplay.

 

[C4]

Wow, ninjaed by BT and PF in the same thread...looks like 10 + 1/2 level + Cha is a popular idea.

As a DM, I award full xp for resolving an encounter in a creative way.... the first time. If you were to fascinate your way out of every encounter, I'd provide significantly reduced xp for each consecutive 0-challenge encounter resolution.

This seems like an odd statement. I get that it's your way of winning the high-level rock-paper-scissors game, but it's pretty inconsistent no? Unless you're also reducing xp rewards after the first encounter where the fighter swings his sword, and after the first time the wizard carries the day with his favorite spell.

I thought the point of DMing high levels is creating circumstances that force players to vary their tactics, rather than simply penalize players who play to their advantages.

 

[Ryujin]

Quoting from the v3.5 SRD:

Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature.

EDIT: Admittedly, it doesn't outright state that these are ongoing requirements, but as DM I'd tend to treat them as such.

We've always played it that the bright shiny thing must remain both in visual and hearing range, in order to initiate and maintain the power. It seems perfectly reasonable, Pied Piper of Hamelin style.

How do you get around it? Many smaller creatures. Intelligent enemies who pull an Odysseus and plug their ears with beeswax. Loud environmental sounds like a waterfall, making it impossible to hear the playing. Countersong and a higher initiative.

In my games characters that spam a specific ability frequently run into opponents who hear about it, then prepare to defeat that ability. As I've said before, the player characters are the rock stars of their world. Every peasant with an IQ higher than the town drunk knows that the Bard can turn anyone with his songs, just like you probably know that Roger Daltrey likes to spin microphones on the wire at concerts.

 

[Greenfield]

Upon re-reading the Fascinate ability, I tend to agree. 90 foot limit, visibility required.

That limits the ability by enough to keep it under control.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Wow, ninjaed by BT and PF in the same thread...looks like 10 + 1/2 level + Cha is a popular idea.


This seems like an odd statement. I get that it's your way of winning the high-level rock-paper-scissors game, but it's pretty inconsistent no? Unless you're also reducing xp rewards after the first encounter where the fighter swings his sword, and after the first time the wizard carries the day with his favorite spell.

I thought the point of DMing high levels is creating circumstances that force players to vary their tactics, rather than simply penalize players who play to their advantages.

Forgive me for oversimplifying.

I do accept responsibility for keeping it fresh. I also expect my (Veteran) players to keep the game interesting, especially for the other players. As long as players are actually having an "Encounter", instead of avoiding and passing over challenges, It's all good. I have some veteran players who like to try to mess with me on purpose, and it's those situations I penalize because they know what it's like when they DM.

Some tricks have turned out to be fun, like when one player decided to try to Baleful Polymorph every opponent into a kitten. He had a menagerie of different colored kittens (We decided the color would match the creature, like the blue kitten that was a Water Elemental). As long as it's fun for everybody else, it's cool.