D&D (2024) The Battle Master Paradigm

[Kannik]

Rogues don't have multiple attacks.

A fighter 11 can prone + push + cleave, for instance. Not including battlemaster.

If by that you mean by using weapon mastery, they'd have to juggle weapons to do so (which feels silly to me, but that's a whole other conversation), and at some point they may have the wrong weapon out to do what they'd like to do at the most opportune moment. (Oh, and the Rogue gets to do one of those with weapon mastery as well as their SA swap, so they're kinda 2/3 as capable as a fighter there too.)

A level 11 BM using their superiority dice on 3 attacks in a round gets 1.6 rounds of being superior before going back to the more mundane.

Personally, I would have preferred a much more robust maneuver system for all Fighters that gives them the ability to do nifty things that are tied to them instead of their weapons, something that Rogues now have a version of. Alas, it is not to be.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Yes, Battlemasters are really good. I mean, so are fighters, and Battlemasters are their second best subclass. In general, the consensus about classes and subclasses is correct, since these are subjective arguments anyway. But just in terms of raw numbers the Battlemaster is up there, and they have a lot of interesting options on the battlefield - sometimes it seems like their turn never ends. While it's true that some of their maneuvers are more frequently useful than others...what class isn't this true for? Only a few invocations are "must-haves," a few weapons, a few spells.

So you find +1 damage to be an interesting option for the battlefield? Of course not. Yes, Manuevers are very nice, and they could be seen like any other ability... but really, it would be very hard to say only a "few spells" are seen as essential. Even if you just have three per level, that is 27 options.

And again, my major complaint is that the die scaling is seen as worth a 10th and 18th level ability.

I don't fully buy your criticism of the BM's Know Your Enemy ability. You aren't just telling the wizard, you are telling the whole party, because you are the "battle master" and the point isn't for you to do all the damage yourself (though BM's are outstanding damage dealers) but to help your party win the battle through your tactical acumen. It's right in the name! But that said, I feel like this is an ability that should be usable at least as many times as the BM's proficiency modifier, and should give them advantage on their next attack against that creature, as well.

Okay, you are in a party with no magic items, a Battlemaster, a Thief, a Cleric and a Berserker. Who is taking advantage of knowing the enemy is vulnerable to cold damage? Who is benefitting from knowing the enemy is immune to lightning damage?

Yes it is the "whole party" but the only people who can take advantage of it reliably are elemental magic-users. And it isn't about the Battlemaster "doing all the damage" it is being able to take advantage of their own abilities. They can't take advantage of this ability, it relies entirely on party composition.

 

[mellored]

If by that you mean by using weapon mastery, they'd have to juggle weapons to do so (which feels silly to me, but that's a whole other conversation), and at some point they may have the wrong weapon out to do what they'd like to do at the most opportune moment.

Weapon swapping is effectively free now. So you can effectively pick your effect

As for if it's silly or not... I kinda like it.

(Oh, and the Rogue gets to do one of those with weapon mastery as well as their SA swap, so they're kinda 2/3 as capable as a fighter there too.)

Rogues need to trade damage for the effect, which fighters don't.

But without multiple attack, they needed something at 5 to not fall behind.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The Battlemaster is, for me, a subclass that lets you build your favorite fantasy fighter. Many ideas that I have* work with the mix-and-match style. You are right that it's all about maneuvers (and so let's ignore Student of War and Know Your Enemy). But the progression for maneuvers is better than you suggest:

Level 3: 3 maneuvers, 4xd8
Level 7: 5 maneuvers, 5xd8
Level 10: 7 maneuvers, 5xd10
Level 15: 9 maneuvers, 6xd10 plus unlimited d8s (relentless)
Level 18: 9 maneuvers, 6xd12 plus unlimited d8s (relentless)

That is steady growth throughout the class, with the option of developing and expanding fighting styles as you go.

But, as is commonly pointed out, the maneuvers you get later are the ones you didn't want before. And you have 25% of all maneuvers by level 7. And that's if you didn't take the feat or the fighting style.

And I'm not really going to call that slow progression that ALSO takes two subclass abilities as steady growth. You are talking +1 die in four levels, then all dice doing +1 damage. Then +1 die after EIGHT levels and then another +1 damage. Compare to the Psi Warrior.

Level 3 --> 4d6
Level 5 --> 6d8
Level 9 --> 8d8
Level 10 --> 8d10
Level 13 --> 10d10
Level 17 --> 12d12

And all of that is baked into the 3rd level ability. And that is a NOTABLE progression.

As for specific maneuvers, I'll make a point about the options available in post below. But: Tasha's has a magnificent 3 pages of various Battlemaster builds. I love those pages, because they give specific guidelines for various builds. I truly hope that the new PHB includes those guidelines.

Like I said, it really isn't about specific maneuvers. It is about the system as a whole. If that was fixed, then fixing the maneuvers is just a matter of polish

 

[Chaosmancer]

The Capstone should just be ‘At the start of your turn, if you have no superiority dice: gain 1 superiority dice’ (Same thing should apply to the Monk and possibly Bard btw). Not as powerful as having multiple dice but it lets you do stuff all the time.

It’s a CAPSTONE ability, at level 18, now is not the time to get subtle about it! When you reach those levels, you should be designing for COOL and stop worrying about balancing the challenge level and all that. You’re on your way to fight GODS for Pete’s sake! Go nuts! You only get to use it for a few level anyway! If a capstone doesn’t make you giddy at the thought of using it, you’ve failed to design a good capstone.

That's basically just a lesser version of their current level 15 ability. Which they should get far sooner.

Biggest flaw from day 1: the choice of maneuvers just get worst as time goes on.

yep

 

[Clint_L]

Only on EnWorld do you get a thread complaining that Battlemasters aren't good enough.

 

[Horwath]

Personally,
I would rather keep maneuver dice at d6 the whole time, more reliable.
Start with 5 instead of 4, almost the same bonus damage.

increase bonus damage to +2d6 at 10th level and +3d6 at 18th level.
bonus usage at 7th and 15th level.
at-will usage at 15th level with only +1d6

 

[Undrave]

Only on EnWorld do you get a thread complaining that Battlemasters aren't good enough.

It's good but you're till doing the same thing from level 3 to level 20.

 

[Gorck]

I still plant my flag on the hill that WotC should:

1) Get rid of Weapon Mastery
2) Get rid of the Battle Master subclass
3) Make the Battle Master's Maneuvers a base Fighter ability.

But, based on this thread, I think I'll add a 4th suggestion:

Either
4a) Make all Maneuvers available from the start, rather than making the Fighter choose 3, then 2 more at levels 7, 10, & 15
or
4b) Make stronger Maneuvers level-gated so the Fighter isn't picking the best upfront, then adding inferior ones later on.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Weapon Masteries are good for other classes though.