The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[barsoomcore]

takyris:

Excellent post. Great depiction of the world of the Abyss. Wow, you've almost convinced me that it makes sense! It sounds like Survivor!

Except that the view you take, though longer view than "Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt!", isn't really a long view. The long view would note that eventually all power imbalances would resolve and ONE being would end up in charge. And as I pointed out, the logical thing for that being to do is to exterminate all life in the Abyss. Or leave.

Maybe that's impossible. Maybe it's been tried and it's impossible and so couldn't be done.

It just seems silly to me still. I have a hard time imagining why any sentient creature would want to live in such a world. Yeah, I know, they're demons, but still.

Then again, I have a hard time understanding Survivor.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, a society of CE beings seems to be a contradiction considering that a society normally has structure and laws. An "army" of demons also seems wrong too - ranks of demons imply a structure that pure Chaos would abhor. I just can't get my human mind around how the Abyss would be - maybe that's a good thing

IceBear

 

[barsoomcore]

I just can't get my human mind around how the Abyss would be - maybe that's a good thing.

Strange typo, that. Spelling Survivor "t", "h", "e", "A", "b", "y", "s", "s".

 

[IceBear]

I don't get it? When did we start talking about crappy TV?

IceBear

 

[Upper_Krust]

Greets, enkrusted one,

Hey Psion mate!

Just cause you say so, eh?

Sorry, THAT doesn't wash.

Hey! I wash plenty!

Then when Demogorgon dies from the trap Grazzt set, that's a bigger loss of face. And Graz'zt earns even more face, because he has shown that even when you think he's down, he's not necessarily. That makes for a much more indelible fear (and much likely to lead one to a durable position as a demon lord) than to merely rely on physical power, as the mere physical will have your lackey turning on you the moment that they think you are vulnerable. Fear of trickery leaves your lackeys fearful even when they THINK you are vulnerable.

I don't see the trap you previously mentioned working to any great extent. The demons are too experienced in such warfare to fall for mundane tactics. Of course I am not saying such tactics won't have any effect, just a negligable one. Also there is always the potential for artifact based chicanery as per the battle between Demogorgon and Graz'zts two armies in the Gord the Rogue novels Come Endless Darkness and Dance of Demons.

There is more than one way to win a fight. Going toe-to-toe is not always the way it gets done. If a demon lord sets up treachery upon treachery and contingency upon contingency, pretty soon his underlings learn that crossing him is not wise and are kept in line. Those same treacheries and contingencies can be used to even the playing field, too.

Absolutely.

It does not always come down to a toe-to-toe fight, and I imagine that most demon lords that held that philosophy would be ex-demon lords before long.

Would only occur if one thought they had an advantage.

It's more specific than that. It is based on his own personal interperetation of abyssal politics which tries to universalize a singular example of CE behavior to encompass the entierety of abyssal politics.

Not exactly. Its also the interpretation of Gary Gygax and 1st Ed. AD&D.

 

[Celebrim]

takyris: Great post

I too think that being CE does not perclude long range planning. I don't want to get too side tracked down that arguement, but I do want to point out that in a certain since, adherence to any alignment percludes 'long-range planning' in the broadest sense. Perhaps a LG person _could_ perform a series of evils and chaotic actions over a long period hoping to achieve a position from which they could accomplish some greater good, but ultimately one cannot help but notice that this is a somewhat more nuetral middle ground position. The reverse is I believe also true. A chaotic evil person that actually performs a series of good deeds in order to achieve a some long range evil is assuming a somewhat more neutral middle ground moral position. And, if the person is CE by nature, then certainly it takes a great deal of discipline to avoid acting out this nature over a long term. However, that isn't really what I want to argue.

I also want to point out that your vision of a CE society is ultimately filled with shades of grey and is complexly neutral. There is a little bit of law here, and a little bit of chaos here, and some evil here, and maybe even some good hidden away in the corners. That's fine and interesting, and certainly alot easier to relate to, but that isn't necessarily what was originally postulated - which was I thought universal complete and unrepetant CE.

However, that's not really what I wanted to add either.

What I really want to add is that if you believe that 'long range planning' allows two demons to cooperate to achieve some mutual end, then you have to ask why all demons of the same level of intelligence haven't come to the same conclusion? Why is it that with the rest of the multiverse unconquered, that Orcus, Demogorgon, Graz'zt and all the rest haven't said, 'You know, we are being (chaotic) stupid. We could all advance our various agenda's better if we just formed an alliance and acted together out of mutual self-interest. That way, the interests of all demonkind (and most especially our august selves) would be advanced and we could secure our various domains far better than we could otherwise. Once we have conquered the universe, then we can continue this debate about which of us will rule it.' This is undoubtably true, and its undoubtably true that each demon lord would in the long term lose if they ever betrayed the other. So why doesn't it happen? It doesn't happen because that's not what demons believe in. That is the position of the Lords of the Nine Hells. The demons don't believe that is the correct course even if it is all true.

Therefore, I propose to you that if a mere Succubi can be loyal for centuries because her long term interests lie that way, that the entire CE philosophy would collapse on itself. Every demon would realize the same thing. The Abyss would overnight become a plane of Law and the forces of Chaos would admit philosophical defeat.

 

[IceBear]

Since when did experience become the sole determiner of whether or not someone would fall into a trap? There's also intelligence of the victim and the trap setter to keep in mind.

IceBear

 

[barsoomcore]

Curse you, Celebrim!

How come you're so smart? You keep saying what I was going to say only couldn't figure out how to say it so ended up saying something completely different and got reduced to making Survivor jokes.

So, yeah. What he said.

I'm going to go make up some more Survivor jokes since it looks like Celebrim has things pretty well wrapped up here.

 

[The Serge]

Um, yeah, the treasure room and door thing was me being hugely absurdist -- but I'm sure that if a DM were short-sighted enough to give a first-level CE wizard a wand of fireballs, it would happen at some point. "Treasure? Bah! What is treasure to a God? BWAHAHAHA, lightning bolt, lightning bolt, lightning bolt!"

Heh. That's not CE. That's nuts!

To the 10th level CE wizard scrying the whole thing, it's a display of inbred idiocy. Experience has given that wizard a better view of plans and strategems, and even if he didn't need that treasure himself, he could have used it for something else. A tenth level chaotic evil wizard can maintain the appearance of lawfulness for longer, because he knows that the moment he flips out and starts fireballing the commoners in the market square, a bunch of square-jawed adventurers are going to come looking for him -- and eventually, one of them will be smart or strong enough to get through his defenses....He can put on an amulet of nondetection and make nice at the local duke's ball. Heck, he'll even save the duke from an assassin rather than taking it as an opportunity to disintegrate the duke's body and polymorph himself into the duke to take his place. Why? Because he's not aiming for the local duchy. He's aiming higher -- and he's figured out an important factor of the multiverse:

True Chaos and True Evil are not one hundred minor sins.

Well, again, very eloquent. However, this character doesn't sound all that Chaotic to me (and as I read further down, my perspective intensifies). The character seems to be either a very disciplined NE or typical LE character.

A 10th level CE Wizard can come in many different packages. However, let's say there is one that is very intelligent, charismatic, and living in a duchy he has his sights on. He will lie, cheat, steal, disregard laws and customs when he can get away with it. If the opportunity presents itself and he knows he can't get caught, the duke's dead or gravely injured because he can accomplish the act, not because he has a reason for it. Can he live in the social structure? Depends on many factors, but largely I'd say a CE character is not going to last long in a lawful environment not because he's not intelligent or wise or charismatic, but because he doesn't want to and sees no reason to. Even if he's not seeking to take over the duchy, he's not likely to stay around because he can attain power elsewhere.... Or he can conduct his research beyond the duchy's boundaries.

True Chaos and True Evil are ninety-nine good deeds that move you into the position to take them by surprise with one deed that guarantees your power, your strength, and your indomitable rulership.

This sounds like a Lawful Evil position. LE is all about the perception of order and the benefit of the society when in fact the exact opposite occurs (although I think the Emperor Palpatine is NE, his actions are largely LE because that was the structure most convenient to him. The Godfather is similar to this as well). CE is not concerned with illusions; it's more interested in pursuing its goals now and will make adjustments and reformulate when it runs into significant challenges.

This might be the heart of the disagreement. My personal belief is that demons won't betray each other as quickly and easily -- that Chaotic Evil does not preclude long-term planning or the ability to act lawful, or even good, as the occasion demands.

Well, I'm sure that there will be deviations from the norm (The Emperor), but largely, I don't see this at all. CE planning is nothing compared to that of NE, much less that of LE. Sure, the planning of a Demon is probably going to be significantly more intense and long-term than a CE mortal, but nowhere near as involved as that of a NE or LE peer.

I do agree that betrayal will not necessarily be immediate... but it's always in the back of the mind of all Demons. Eventually, regardless of the "support" the goal is to have one's own power, to answer to no one, no ideal, no thing, and to rule as one wishes regardless to the needs and desires of others.

I fully agree that eventually, a CE creature will make its move. But I see them as much more cautious and careful, based on what they've witnessed and what powers they've seen. Physically powerful, spell-like prodigies with six heads and multiple gaze attacks and eye rays will find themselves bumped into spheres of annhilation if they wantonly break rules and disregard alliances. Even Chaotic Evil societies will put down their mad dogs.

Actually, I think that it's the Int and Wis of a Demon that will determine when it will strike. The more intelligent/wise Demon will know the right time when it presents itself. It's not planning to formulate the right time... at least not to the degree that a Yugoloth or Devil would. When it appears, it takes advantage of the situation.

And, yes, wanton attacks will result in annihilation if the Demon is too stupid to know when it can get away with treachery or an attack. It has nothing to do with alliances or rules. It has to do with personal survival. If a Demon is intelligent or wise enough to know that a treacherous move on its part is not going to result in the intended goal of gaining more power, it won't do it. Alliances are irrelevant. Rules are irrelevant. You will service us... errr... sorry, got a little carried away there...

So anyway... that's pretty murky, but I'm at work, writing quickly, and it's the best I can do on short notice.

If this is murky, I'd hate to see you when you have time to think! You're giving me a run for my money!

 

[S'mon]

Maybe it's just the nature of what we're discussing, but there's something deeply unnerving about multiple people saying nice things about my post. I keep glancing over my shoulder nervously...
(snip)
...Or maybe just "The Abyss is a Harsh Mistress..."

-Tacky

Another great post, Tacky!

We love you, Tacky!