The Book of Vile Darkness - it is mine, review within

[drnuncheon]

Hi drnuncheon!

I agree Demogorgon wouldn't commit his forces unless he has a perceived advantage such as Graz'zt's relative weakness in the Book of Vile Darkness - which was how the example initially arose.

If Demogorgon perceives an advantage he will act on it.

But Graz'zt's relative weakness is not an advantage if taking him out leaves Demogorgon vulnerable to Orcus or another challenger.

You are perfectly right in that if it were just a two-party conflict (Demogorgon and Graz'zt), then Demogorgon would walk all over Graz'zt as soon as he thought he had the upper hand.

But Demogorgon doesn't exist with only Graz'zt. There's Orcus to worry about too. He has to think, "Gee, I could stomp Graz'zt, but then Orcus would hit me with everything he's got, and he'd wind up in charge. No way am I letting that fat loser get the best of me! I'll leave six-finger for later."

Originally posted by barsoomcore


Because describe for me a situation in which Suzy WOULDN'T insist she enjoys a demon lord's protection? Whether it's true or not? Of course she's going to say, "Hey, those belong to Graz'zt, big boy." What other choice does she have? Bob's problem is that no matter what he does, he might end up getting his flaming red hinder kicked, because he has no way of knowing whether or not Suzy's on the level.

It pays to be wary of who you claim allegiance to. Word will get around, and Graz'zt might not be happy if someone was 'using' him for protection that wasn't due them.

Let's put it this way...if you were walking around the bad part of LA, would you claim to be a Crip if you weren't? There's danger there, too, and plenty of it. Suzy might lie about it, but she'd better high-tail herself to a demon lord and get some protection, or else someone's going to figure out that she isn't really under anyone's umbrella at all. Maybe Graz'zt's homies have a secret handshake or something. Maybe he brands them, I dunno.

See, your 'become safe by killing everyone else in the Abyss' idea might seem like the best path at first - until you realize that these demons, being not-stupid, are going to realize that they don't have a chance of doing that. So they do the next best thing - they team up with someone bigger than them and try to make themselves useful to the big guy so that they don't get squashed by soneone else.

They're not doing it out of loyalty or a desire for order or any of the reasons anyone else might do it - they're doing it out of a desire for survival. Getting yourself killed is definitely not chaotic.

So why does a demon lord put up with weaker demons? Why does he trust them? Because they fear him. He can kick their tuckuses. They are not going to betray him on a whim, because they are not stupid. The succubus isn't going to say "I will not betray Graz'zt because he is my master" or "because he is good to me", she'll say "I am not going to betray Graz'zt because what it gets me isn't worth it." And yeah, if she gets a better deal, she'll be gone. But she'd better make damn sure it's a better deal.

It's all about survival. In a Chaotic Evil society, if you are not one of the powerful, then you are either attached to one of the powerful, or you are a target. A demon who could survive without the protection of someone more powerful would have to be either incredibly powerful, or very crafty - very crafty indeed.

Originally posted by barsoomcore

Yes, intelligence and chaos are opposed, just as creativity and law are opposed. Just as compassion and evil, and self-interest and good are all opposed. Us poor humans, caught in the middle.

You know, the only one of those I definitely agree with is the compassion and evil opposition. If creativity and law are opposed, then how come Shakespeare's sonnets equal or surpass any free verse that I've seen? If self-interest and good are opposed, where does that leave the principle of enlightened self-interest? Intelligence and chaos opposed - kenjib seems to be confusing the 'Chaos' of alignments with the 'chaos' of randomness. 'Chaos' in alignments is 'individualism', not randomness.

And for the record, I think that the really powerful Lovecraftian horrors - Azathoth, the Elder Gods and the like - are for the most part True Neutral, for the same reasons that animals and vermin are. They're simply on such a different scale that human morality means nothing to them. If humans are not evil for accidentally stepping on helpless ants, how can Azathoth be evil for doing the same?

(Nyarlathotep, I'll grant you. He's the kid in the back yard with the magnifying glass on a sunny day.)

J

 

[Johno]

There is one very good reason why a sole Demonic Ruler has not emerged.

The very fact that the other demons realise;
"Unholy, fiendish pancakes!! Demon X has ursurped almost enough power to rule the Abyss himself!! IF this happens, we can kiss our hairy demonic butts goodbye!"

And so the rest of the trillion odd demons unite to defeat the upcoming star. But as soon as Demon X is no longer a threat to controlling the entire Abyss, the Alliance of Demonic Badness falls apart.

Thus the status quo of very powerful Demonic forces allied against each other continues, each trying to weddle, confound, trick, fool, lure, intimidate, and force the others to doing their bidding.

And there is never, ever any one powerful being that starts consuming the others in order to preserve his rulership.

Chaos is not against temporary alliances. Chaos is for change. Temporary, shifting alliances are all about change. Chaos is not against co-operation. Chaos is for individualism. Otherwise CG individuals would not be able to function in a group.

 

[frankthedm]

And idea of deities being protected by their number of followers as suggested in Deities & Demigods, makes me doubt my sanity, to actually have wasted good money for such a book.

Kinda annoying, true but in D&D and especially 3E, the System of combat REALLY hoses singular entities even those with the BBEG syndrome. Having a buncha shlubs keeps the Main foe activce for quite a bit longer.