D&D 5E The Case for a Magic Item Shop?

[steeldragons]

Thanks [MENTION=13009]Paraxis[/MENTION] for reinforcing...pretty much every one of my points.

I agree we will see all of that. I think that is unfortunate and lamentable. I will, as usual, ignore it completely.

 

[aramis erak]

Gold piece to dollar exchange doesn't work well, D&D economy is all kinds of nonsense.

Current gold price per ounce is roughly 1200, 1 lb of gold in D&D is 50gp, so (1200 * 16) = 19,200, 19,200/50 = 384 dollars per gold piece.

But a loaf of bread is 2cp, and about 1 dollar at the store, so 5 loaves is a silver, 50 loaves is a gold, so 1 gold piece = 50 dollars.

You can't start comparing swords and things because are current society doesn't see them as tools as much as decoration and art.

It's worth noting that, medievally, Coin-Gold ranged from 10x to 20x the value of Silver depending highly upon debasement of each, and Coin-Silver ran typically 8x to 12x the value by weight of coin-bronze. (Copper wasn't used by itself, for the most part. But many referred to the bronze or brass coins as copper coin. )

We do have records of estate values from the medieval period. The most comprehensive being the Domesday surveyof England. We also have some surviving shipping contracts, and such, and as such, a workable medieval value model can be obtained.

Likewise, we have a lot of surviving data on the Roman empire. But most of that is macroeconomic, big scope stuff, not so much the prices.

The largest flaw in the D&D economy is the ~45g coins of 1e... ~30g is the largest that routinely circulated; for comparison, the Morgan silver dollar was 26.73 g of 0.9 fine silver (the balance being copper, with traces of other metals). Many medieval coins were in the 1 g to 5 g range. the current edition's 50 per pound (9 g ea) is still heavy, but not outside the range that circulated. Plus, decimalization wasn't a big thing, either.

The prices in 5e aren't too badly out of whack from domesday, provided one ignores the much overweight coinage, the decimalization, and the use of copper instead of bronze.

 

[Paraxis]

A couple observations on the rarity of some of the magic items we have so far.

Armor +1 is rare, while Weapon +1 is uncommon. Armor +1 is the same rarity as a +2 weapon.

Scrolls of cantrips and level 1 spells are the only other known common rarity magic items besides healing potions, so does this mean they should be as expensive and have the same availability?

Goggles of night are uncommon as are gauntlets of ogre power, same as a +1 weapon. So having darkvision is valued as the same as having a 19 strength, would love to be able to change out my half elf's darkvision for a 19 strength.

I find it odd that armor is more rare for the same bonus as a weapon of the same quality.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Thanks [MENTION=13009]Paraxis[/MENTION] for reinforcing...pretty much every one of my points.

I agree we will see all of that. I think that is unfortunate and lamentable. I will, as usual, ignore it completely.

Yeah I despise that POV in my games, but if that makes other happy cool. Hopefully the DMG lays out all kinds of options to help DM's get the style they want. I'm more for a 7th-8th level character having a +1 weapon and maybe armor, and a couple wondrous items they took from various hoards and ancient temples they cleared out. Keep the emphasis on the PC abilities rather than the gear so the PC isn't a sword with a character attached.

 

[Mishihari Lord]

I really hate the magic as mundane thing too, and blame video games for that expectation. Magic supposed to be cool, and mundane magic doesn't fit any kind of world I would like to run.

One thing I have tried to make everyone happy is to give plusses to masterwork weapons or weapons with materials better than steel. Mithril, adamantine, and starsteel are +1/2/3 without magic at all. High quality crafting gets +1, masterwork is +2, and there are very rare +3 weapons based on crafting alone. These can all be bought from a smith or trader and I don't have a problem with that. IMC weapons and armor must be enchanted by the carfter at the time of creation, you don't see too many weapons with magic and crafting bonuses - the only people with the inclination and the lifetime to gain the ability to do so are a few elf and dwarf mastercrafters.

Edit: We shouldn't be too hard on Paraxis. He mentioned Sharn, and mundane magic is one of the setting conceits of Eberron. Doing what he said is probably totally legit in that setting.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Harry Potter level magic shops and Eberron are major turn offs for me but if someone likes it I'm not going to tell them they are wrong. Just not my deal. A good RPG could support both.

 

[KarinsDad]

Gold piece to dollar exchange doesn't work well, D&D economy is all kinds of nonsense.

Current gold price per ounce is roughly 1200, 1 lb of gold in D&D is 50gp, so (1200 * 16) = 19,200, 19,200/50 = 384 dollars per gold piece.

But a loaf of bread is 2cp, and about 1 dollar at the store, so 5 loaves is a silver, 50 loaves is a gold, so 1 gold piece = 50 dollars.

You can't start comparing swords and things because are current society doesn't see them as tools as much as decoration and art.

I disagree.

I think that a 1 GP = $100 ratio tends to give people a fair idea of what a gold piece in the game is all about.

Non-magic weapons in the game typically range from 1 to 50 GP or $100 to $5000 equivalent. Guns in the real world tend to typically range in the $200 to $1500 range.

The majority of starting PC armor in the game typically range from 5 to 50 GP range or $500 to $5000 equivalent. Bullet proof vests in the real world are in the $500 to $1500 range.

Backpack $200
Blanket $50
Clothes $50 (common) to $1500 (fine, or high end suit in the real world)

Transportation: Horse $5,000 to $40,000, Car $15,000 to $40,000

Lifestyle: 1 SP squalid a day to 10 GP aristocratic a day ($10 to $1000)

Meals: 3 CP to 2 GP, 3 SP modest ($3 to $200, $30 modest)

Inn: 7 CP to 4 GP a night, 5 SP modest ($7 to $400, $50 modest)

Mug of Ale: 4 CP ($4)

Your loaf of bread example: 2 CP = $2.

Granted, a sheet of paper cannot be mass manufactured in a game world, that is why it costs $20 a sheet.


Is this a perfect 1 to 1 correspondence? No. But as a rough rule of thumb, the 1 GP = $100 ratio works well to give DMs and players a rough idea of how much money is actually being found or given.

If an NPC pays the PCs 50 GP, it doesn't sound like that huge of an amount. But, it's about $5000. For 5 PCs, that 's $1000 each.

That plate armor that protects so well and the low level fighter drools over is 1500 GP. That's $150,000. That's incredibly expensive.


But if one looks at "what are the general costs of goods and services", 50 GP in the game world will buy the PCs about the same amount of meals or nights in the inn or weapons as $5000 will in the real world.


This means that the Potions of Healing cost $5000 each. And if a PC finds one and can sell it for 60% or 30 GP ($3000), yes, he can live in a modest inn (5 SP) with 3 modest meals (3 SP each) a day (total 14 SP or $140 a day) for 5 weeks. Selling one set of plate armor for 1000 GP? That's 3 years of living modestly in the game world paying at inn rates (obviously, a person would find a boarding house and live 6 years off of 1000 GP).


It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to be good enough so that players know what a 1000 GP hoard is effectively worth in terms that they understand ($100,000, that's some serious coin).


So in 4E, that simple +1 sword at 360 GP was $36,000.

That 30th level item in 4E? 3,125,000 GP or $312,500,000. Almost one third of a billion dollars. But, think about that. The wealthiest people in the real world are worth about 10 to 80 billion and can afford multiple toys worth one third of a billion dollars each. 30th level 4E PCs would be some of the wealthiest people in a fantasy world.


The thing that people have problems with is that they see that Potion of Healing at $5000 and say "I wouldn't pay that in the real world, so your 1 GP to $100 ratio must be wrong". Maybe you wouldn't pay that because players in the real world tend not to be adventurers who find and blow through hundreds of gold pieces like there is no tomorrow (which there sometimes isn't in the game). But many goods and services in the PHB make reasonable sense with this ratio. Perfect? No.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

I don't know about everyone else but I like saying "While my character is in Sharn I go purchase that +2 flaming frosting keen greatsword I have been saving up for, I will deduct the gold cost in the DMG, done and done, lets move on to more interesting things like killing and stealing airships."

Actually this I don't mind too much as you are in Sharn a large city that is the nexus for the exploration trade in Xendric. Odds are you can find that kind of sword.
I would prefer that you spend some game time seeking out where this kind of sword could be, adventure to the district and suss out the current owner, then bargain to purchase the sword... all while attracting the attention of some of the power players in the city. But if getting back onto the main campaign is more important.. I get it.

What I do mind is going into FlameKeep and trying the same thing. Or into Hommlet.

I still use the GP limit for settlements and it makes the world a bit better, IMHO. What you can buy 'off the shelf' from mages guilds and outfitter stores is limited and quite often you have to go to the right city and find the right vendor.

That being said, in regards to the OP. One thing I try to do is get a 'wish list' from my players and I 'seed' the encounters with items they are wishing for. And I avoid crippling a character concept for the long term. I would have the next encounter end up providing some goggles of the night.. or just retroactively state you acquired a pair before starting the adventure.

YMMV

 

[Shayuri]

There's not really a right or wrong answer here, guys.

Every table decides if the setting works better with or without magic shops, based on how it's been constructed, and the personal preferences of the players and GM. And that judgement can change over time, as the needs of the narrative and players and GM change.

I mean, that's fairly self-evident I think, but reading the last few posts I feel like people are starting to dig in their heels over disagreements based on trying to extend local game-table decisions to global whole-game practices.

Maybe we can shift the tone from arguing over what people -should- do, to discussing what we've done before, and why?

 

[mcbobbo]

There's not really a right or wrong answer here, guys.

Every table decides if the setting works better with or without magic shops, based on how it's been constructed, and the personal preferences of the players and GM. And that judgement can change over time, as the needs of the narrative and players and GM change.

I mean, that's fairly self-evident I think, but reading the last few posts I feel like people are starting to dig in their heels over disagreements based on trying to extend local game-table decisions to global whole-game practices.

Maybe we can shift the tone from arguing over what people -should- do, to discussing what we've done before, and why?

Why not go first? What have you done, and why?