D&D 5E The Case for a Magic Item Shop?

[KarinsDad]

My games don't have "I have build ABC so I need magic items 123". I have always hated this playstyle with a vengeance. "Oh look guys, this dungeon somehow has the exact sword I have been needing, wow the luck." (Dungeon number 4) "Hey guys, you will never guess what happened." "You found exactly what you've needed, so have we."

That playstyle for me really defeats the purpose of dungeon exploration and really the game itself. All the game becomes is one in which the main goal is to find the best and the quickest mathematical solution to killing the monsters. Not fun at all in my opinion.

Who says that the one playstyle automatically leads to the other?

We have had magic item shops in our campaigns for decades and players almost never got the exact item they wanted, either in a dungeon or in a magic item shop. Shops are there to acquire common items (even then, the exact one desired not guaranteed) and once in a while, uncommon ones (also to get components for crafting items or adding spells to books). The shops do not exist in the game to find the absolute best sword for a given build. They exist because they are plausible and fun for many players.

 

[Uller]

The original post doesn't really make a "case" for a magic item market so much as a desire for one. Part of the fun of d&d is overcoming obstacles...the dark being one of them. (You're liable to be eaten by a grue.)

The case is an easy one assuming the default high magic setting...

Civilizations, even primitive ones, thrive on specialization and trade. Clearly magic exists, either it is readily available to be found or made. People with money will want magic. People with the means to find or produce magic items will want money. A price will be arrived at and presto....a market will exist. If the it is a valid adventure hook for PCs with little money or some other need to be hired out to go find a magic item then it is just as valid for PCs who have money that they need less than a particular magic item to trade it.

Let's take the example of the OP. As a DM I would handle this in a variety of ways. In the short term it might be that the darkness of the environment is an obstacle I want the PCs to have to contend with. So I'd say deal with it...work as a team and find a way. In the middle time frame I might provide some way for te PCs to solve the problem. Maybe hint at a dark light torch in a monster's lair. But in the longer term during downtime between adventures absolutely they can trade some gold or other resources for magic items. Depending on settig maybe they went to the local magic shop. Maybe they commissioned it to be made or found (or stolen). Whatever. Finding treasure is a fun part of the game but only if you can do something with it. Finding a +1 battle axe might be fun and useful if you primarily us a greatsword but have no magic one. But later if you can trade that plus 5000gp for a magic greatsword (and you describe it as you hired some mechant to find it for you or you bribed a crazy old man to reveal its location or whatever) who cares? Now you have less wealth than your compatriots to use on other things.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

The case is an easy one assuming the default high magic setting...

Civilizations, even primitive ones, thrive on specialization and trade. Clearly magic exists, either it is readily available to be found or made. People with money will want magic. People with the means to find or produce magic items will want money. A price will be arrived at and presto....a market will exist. If the it is a valid adventure hook for PCs with little money or some other need to be hired out to go find a magic item then it is just as valid for PCs who have money that they need less than a particular magic item to trade it.

I don't think the default assumption is a high magic setting. Especially with the change in the way magic items work in 5e.

Whether magic item shops make any sense depends on precisely how rare items are, I agree. The implication is that the default position in 5e is that magic items require exceptionally strong and skilled people months or years of their life to make and require extremely expensive and rare components. These are the kind of things that one only makes for themselves or for a king's ransom worth of money that would set someone for life.

When the component to make a Ring of Protection is a leaf that falls from the longest living tree in a particular forest filled with monsters and guarded by dragons that is freshly picked during a solar eclipse, there WILL be Rings of Protection because of how powerful they are. But they aren't going to be sold in stores all over the world.

Let's assume this is true. It's likely that there is about 1000 of them produced throughout all of history. Especially in most D&D campaigns where civilization has lasted a long, long time. 10,000 or 50,000 years worth of time where Wizards were creating magic items isn't out of the ordinary for most D&D worlds.

Given another trope within D&D is that entire empires come and go and are often forgotten. We can assume that 80% or greater of the rings created are lost somewhere in undiscovered tombs or guarded by ancient guardians since we can assume more rings were created BEFORE the current generation than during it.

It's likely 80% of the remaining 200 of them were passed down from generation to generation and are considered heirlooms and birthrights and likely wouldn't be sold at almost any price.

The last 40 or so of them are likely in the possession of adventurers. They might be willing to part with their rings, I suppose, since many of them are mercenaries. But given these magic items protect them from danger and they spend a lot of time in danger, I wouldn't count on it.

I assume magic items like +1 swords and +1 armor would be a lot more common. It's likely the process for creating it is cheaper and requires less rare components. There MIGHT be a store that sold these as the number of them would likely get to the actual level required to have an economy.

 

[Nebulous]

I understand not having enchanted weapons, armor, rings, and such "legendary" things for sale. But making small, utilitarian items purchasable might give us something to spend our gold on and allow characters to do things like adventure in hostile environments (like under water dungeons or the underdark, etc.).

I'm 100% on board with not making magic weapons/items purchasable in 5e. But i would also allow small consumables to have rare, dedicated outlets. Talk to your DM, there's probably a solution.

 

[mcbobbo]

I'm approaching magic items as they litter the caves of monsters, that the characters stumble over one at least once a game session for the most part. There is an economy of selling and producing magic items.

Approaching it this was as a player? Or in general? I got the jist earlier that you don't typically GM?

In my last few 4e campaigns...

I do like this approach.

I understand that some DMs believe that adding a price makes certain players feel entitled to them. To that I can only say that I'm sorry you have to deal with that. I also understand that some folks feel adding a price cheapens the whole "magic experience." To that I say it depends on the type of campaign you are running. For a typical low-magic Middle-Earth-style game, sure. That's reasonable. For the type of world presented in most D&D adventures, fiction and video games, I think that's a bit unrealistic. When many popular characters in official D&D novels are running around with a dozen magic items or more, I can see why players (and DMs) might have similar expectations for their own game.

You're definitely correct if you're describing the way things were in prior editions. I'm not as sure things are STILL that way, based on what they did with 5e and what has been said since. We'll see the DMG really soon, and then we'll know more...

Magic item shops, to me, change the type of game you are playing. It doesn't mean it's bad. It's a question of taste. Myself, I dislike the idea that magic item shops can cater to the wants and needs of PCs.

I agree. A big part of the game is not having every corner case covered, and having to make due.

I assume magic items like +1 swords and +1 armor would be a lot more common. It's likely the process for creating it is cheaper and requires less rare components. There MIGHT be a store that sold these as the number of them would likely get to the actual level required to have an economy.

I agree, and in fact potions are on the list in the PHB, so that jives there as well.

Talk to your DM, there's probably a solution.

That's been common advice. I assume the game world has long since exploded now, since the OP revealed that there was only a short amount of time left anyway. Not enough to go back to town, even.

 

[Paraxis]

Approaching it this was as a player? Or in general? I got the jist earlier that you don't typically GM?

No idea where you got that idea from, I run two games a week and have done so for a very long time. I also play in two games a week so I guess sometimes I talk from a player perspective but not on issues like this usually.

For example one of my games, is a conversion of the Pathfinder mega dungeon The Emerald Spire, and the plot is all about delving deep and retrieving magic items to use by a resistance group against a tyrannical military order controlling the area. So tons of magic items, and selling of them to the resistance in trade for credit that they are spending on purchasing a tavern/inn and healing items.

The second campaign, is them exploring a new continent based out of a port city going against lizard folk, yuan-ti, and intelligent apes all of which also have magic items they use against the heroes and they collect. They haven't gone magic item shopping yet but it is available to them in the port city.

 

[Hussar]

No idea where you got that idea from, I run two games a week and have done so for a very long time. I also play in two games a week so I guess sometimes I talk from a player perspective but not on issues like this usually.

For example one of my games, is a conversion of the Pathfinder mega dungeon The Emerald Spire, and the plot is all about delving deep and retrieving magic items to use by a resistance group against a tyrannical military order controlling the area. So tons of magic items, and selling of them to the resistance in trade for credit that they are spending on purchasing a tavern/inn and healing items.

The second campaign, is them exploring a new continent based out of a port city going against lizard folk, yuan-ti, and intelligent apes all of which also have magic items they use against the heroes and they collect. They haven't gone magic item shopping yet but it is available to them in the port city.

Heh, welcome to my world. The second you start to advocate for players, you are automatically not considered a real DM anymore and must be one of those self-entitled players who are ruining the game for everyone.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I agree, and in fact potions are on the list in the PHB, so that jives there as well.

Yeah, and magic items will have rarities in the DMG. I suspect what we see is advice in the DMG on how to handle magic items based on rarity. I suspect the advice will be that common items will be able to be purchased for enough money in major cities. That uncommon items might be able to be acquired with a LOT of time and effort and rare items are impossible to find.

 

[MoutonRustique]

I hope this is a correct thread to ask this - and, also, it may have been answered (I have not read the 25 pages in full, I confess).

How much would you estimate a person would pay for an indestructible sword that is very sharp and easier to wield (+1 to damage and +1 to hit - corresponds to have a +2 Str bonus, or, approximately, to a good deal of training : ~4 levels' worth) ?

I see it in two main approaches :

1 - it is an indestructible sword that confers the advantage of being a good deal stronger than you actually are.

• indestructible would be worth a good deal here. It is prevention against breakage in battle (important IRL!) and prevention against having to repair or replace it.
  - placing a value on the first part is a bit tricky, but it may not be as much as we would think if D&D people think like RL people. It may seem strange at first thought, but people don't price life-loss prevention all that high (see a multitude of studies for this - or simply think about the fact that some people don't buckle their seatbelt, or other common driving habits.)
  - as for the second part, (avoiding replacement and repair), it would probably be around 3-4 times the price of a regular sword (maybe more, but I'd be surprised). Same as above - most of us will not pay twice the price even if the object lasts twice as long. I'm guessing most fighting people wouldn't habitually go through 5 swords. But I may be very wrong on this.
• the additional power would be worth a lot. On the hand, defeated is defeated. I wager this would probably function in the same vein as sporting equipment - for those that can afford it, better is always better, and you're always looking for that extra edge. For amateurs, good enough is good enough.
  
  This would mean that those with the highest desire and purchasing power would set the price. Since in most D&D settings, most people of skill would not also be people of wealth, nobles would probably price them a little bit higher than what the most skilled would be willing/able to pay for them - and buy them as novelties/bragging rights or to offer as valued gifts. So perhaps equatable to a trained warhorse? Bit more?

2 - now this is where things get (for me) really cool (and stupid).
Engineering applications of a flexible, sharp and unbreakable material that can withstand heat, acid, etc, etc.

• IRL - millions of dollars (or more) per blade.
• In D&D - however much your engineers can afford - which would probably amount to less than the price the martial aspect would set : in either case, it's the nobles doing the actual spending. Nobles tend to prefer to have the martials on their side over the engineers. A case could be made for a ruler interested in engineering. Then the price would be sky-high.

Anyway these are my rambling musings about the [realism/need] of magic shops... All these are made with the idea that adventurers are not common (see the bit about the division of skill and wealth.)

 

[mcbobbo]

Heh, welcome to my world. The second you start to advocate for players, you are automatically not considered a real DM anymore and must be one of those self-entitled players who are ruining the game for everyone.

Yeah, no. I recall him saying he didn't care whether or not anyone at the table but him enjoyed themselves. Doesn't strike me as a DM-minded person. It has basically nothing with advocating for players, and instead everything to do with advocating against them.