D&D (2024) The Cleric should be retired

[Yaarel]

Does it say that about all races? And even if you accept that, it age still doesn't equate to level or tier.

As I mentioned in the earlier post, according to 5e:

Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, and Tieflings, all reach maturity at about the same rate. Dragonborn and Half-Orc mature sooner, about 15.


It makes sense that class level 1 starts around adulthood, 20, the age of majority. The background is the young adulthood 16−19 preceding it.

 

[Maxperson]

As I mentioned in the earlier post, according to 5e:

Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, and Tieflings, all reach maturity at about the same rate. Dragonborn and Half-Orc mature sooner, about 15.

5e is silly in a lot of ways. Even so, age still does not equate to level or tier.

 

[Yaarel]

5e is silly in a lot of ways.

I strongly like these species maturing at the same rate as Human. These are nonbiological species. They are nature beings who choose to manifest in Human forms. They should be the same as Humans, even if sometimes idealized versions of Humans.

In D&D 5e terms, the Elves are magical spirits, shapeshifters who chose to become Human forms, and some materialized into the Material Plane with a Human-like biology.

Gnomes and Tieflings are also magical beings imitating Human forms.

I tend to view Orc and Halfling as naturalistic hominids. But perhaps they are magical beings, Giant and Fey respectively.

Even so, age still does not equate to level or tier.

It makes sense that class level 1 starts around adulthood, 20, the age of majority. The background is the young adulthood 16−19 preceding it.

 

[Maxperson]

I strongly like these species maturing at the same rate as Human. These are nonbiological species. They are nature beings who choose to manifest in Human forms. They should be the same as Humans, even if sometimes idealized versions of Humans.

I don't know where you are getting that from. All the non-human races you mentioned are not spirit beings who manifest in physical form. They are all distinct biological beings. All of them.

In D&D 5e terms, the Elves are magical spirits, shapeshifters who chose to become Human forms, and some materialized into the Material Plane with a Human-like biology.

There's nothing in the 5e PHB that says that elves are magical spirits. They are a magical race as evidenced by their racial abilities, but that doesn't make them spirits. They breed, have baby elves, grow and die of old age in 5e.

I mean, that's a cool homebrew for you to use, but default 5e does not have those races as spirits taking humanlike forms.

Gnomes and Tieflings are also magical beings imitating Human forms.

I mean, tieflings literally says the opposite. They were human and their pact with dark powers has changed their appearance. They aren't imitating anything.

I tend to view Orc and Halfling as naturalistic hominids. But perhaps they are magical beings, Giant and Fey respectively.

If you like. I'm not going to argue against your homebrew. Stuff like that is cool and there really isn't anything to argue against. I can like, dislike or be indifferent to it, but there's nothing to argue against. However, if you are claiming that 5e has made them spirits taken humanlike form, that I'm going to argue against because 5e doesn't say that.

It makes sense that class level 1 starts around adulthood, 20, the age of majority. The background is the young adulthood 16−19 preceding it.

Even for spirits, level and age are not tied together.

 

[Vikingkingq]

The chart works for Elves because Elves reach physical maturity at the same rate as Humans do, about the age of 20.

Because Elves are eternally youthful, living for many centuries and likely living forever magically, many Elven cultures allow individuals an extensive period of time to "find themselves", before deciding what to do with the remainder of their eternal lives. It is similar to college and world travel and self exploration but more intense. At the age of 100, these Elves take on the responsibilities of looking after their Elven communities.

But cognitively, the Elves are like Humans, who would likely do similarly if eternally youthful. A 20 year old is a 20 year old.

You're confusing physical maturity with sociocultural maturity. If the question is "when does a character end their training/education and embark on a career," (i.e, when do they shift from Background to Class) or "when is a character considered an adult by their society," it is blatantly not the case that Elves, Dwarfs, gnomes, etc. hit that at the same age as humans, because the PHB tells us that's not the case. I'll give you the quotes:

"The age entry noles the age when a member of lhe race is considered an adult." (p.17)
"Dwarves mature at the same rate as humans, but they are considered young until they reach the age of 50." (p.20)
"An elf typically claims adulthood and an adult name around the age of 100." (p.23)
"Gnomes mature at the same rate humans do, and most are expected to settle down into an adult life by around age 40." (p.36)
And so on.

After all, if you're a long-lived species, and as obsessive as the elves or as perfectionist in craftmanship as the dwarfs, why would you only allocate 20 years for training? Why not spend a few more decades honing your abilities to super-human proficiency, when you have hundreds of years to spare? This is one of the main ways that long-lived species differ from humanity in socio-cultural organization and psychology - they're not hurrying to get out the door and take advantage of one's limited youth and vitality, and they view humanity's impatience and drive as something alien - as we see from the sidebars about how the different species view humans.

 

[Yaarel]

"The age entry notes the age when a member of the race is considered an adult." (p.17)
"Dwarves mature at the same rate as humans, but they are considered young until they reach the age of 50." (p.20)
"An elf typically claims adulthood and an adult name around the age of 100." (p.23)
"Gnomes mature at the same rate humans do, and most are expected to settle down into an adult life by around age 40." (p.36)
And so on.

These species are adults around 20. The rest is cultural expectations.

It is equivalent to Human cultures concerning assumptions about when to go to college, get married, have kids, retire.

 

[Vikingkingq]

These species are adults around 20. The rest is cultural expectations.

It is equivalent to Human cultures concerning assumptions about when to go to college, get married, have kids, retire.

But cultural expectations really matter when it comes to how societies structure education and training systems!

 

[Yaarel]

But cultural expectations really matter when it comes to how societies structure education and training systems!

I agree cultural expectations matter, and it is fun for fantasy game to explore them.

My point is, around the age of 20, the individuals of these species are cognitively adults, of the age of majority, ethically responsible their own actions, and able to make decisions about risking ones own life.


When the Elves become 100 years old, it is analogous to a Human retirement plan. Except, this age is something like ceremonially marking the end of self-exploration, and taking on the responsibility of improving the Elven community. The decades of self-exploration help individual Elves figure out how to best help the Elven community.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

We should take care about this point to avoid potential controversies style:

- You can't date that elf, she is underage!

- Underage?, but she is 49 years old!

Hasbro worries too much D&D to be a family-friendly brand and that type of jokes aren't wellcome. The horny should shut up when the female dragonborn or half-orc is just "legal age".

 

[Mephista]

There's nothing in the 5e PHB that says that elves are magical spirits. They are a magical race as evidenced by their racial abilities, but that doesn't make them spirits. They breed, have baby elves, grow and die of old age in 5e.

Nitpick - Its actually part of their species background, as described in Mordenkainen Book of Foes. They're created directly from the sapient chaos magic. 5e Elves are just old school (2e/3e) Eladrin-as-energy-beings who chose to take physical form, and when they die, return to being those energy beings.

Its a cool bit of lore, Yaarel is correct about them being spirits if you use Tome of Foes, which I do believe is the default for 5e.

I would not say the same for tieflings, aasimar, genasi - lorewise, they've got spirit blood in them, but they're not spirits themselves. They're mutants born of pact, wish or sexual intimiacy, beings of flesh with a bit of extra.

The gnomes never got their origin story told in 5e, so we could end up with "born of Feywild" or "Glittergold made them from gemstones" or something else, all pulled from previous editions. Which... is just twisting the elf and dwarf origin stories, respectively.

I mean, tieflings literally says the opposite. They were human and their pact with dark powers has changed their appearance. They aren't imitating anything.

If you like. I'm not going to argue against your homebrew. Stuff like that is cool and there really isn't anything to argue against. I can like, dislike or be indifferent to it, but there's nothing to argue against. However, if you are claiming that 5e has made them spirits taken humanlike form, that I'm going to argue against because 5e doesn't say that.

Even for spirits, level and age are not tied together.