The Confederate Flag

[nightwind1]

The phrase that I was told some Southerners actually used in reference to the US Civil War was "The War Between the States."

I've always preferred (and use almost exclusively when I'm dicussing it) "The Slaver's Revolt".

 

[nightwind1]

A side note: My 10 year old son has expressed a feeling of shame at being a Southerner because the South had slaves and fought a war to keep them. I wonder if any of you can understand how I could feel both glad and sad about this?

Bullgrit

Then tell him he should be proud to be an American.

Most Americans don't identify by region, as much as they to by state. So you don't usually get "I'm proud to be a North Easterner" or "I'm proud to be a Mid-Westerner". You are more likely to hear "I'm proud to be a Mainer", or "I'm proud to be an Iowan". Some even go further down the scale: "I'm proud to be a San Franciscan" or "I'm proud to be a Bostonian".

 

[nightwind1]

A lot of people have called the Confederacy traitors in this thread. How so? Aren't USians traitors to the crown of England? Yet that is celebrated. How is the distinction made for you folks? Just the morality of the cause of rebellion?

We beat the British, we don't fly the Union Jack. We beat the slavers, we shouldn't fly the traitor's rag.

 

[MechaPilot]

I am not an african-american, and I am southern only in that my mother was raised in the south before she moved north and married my father. As such, I am ill-equipped to address the offensiveness of the confederate flag. However, I am an american and a lover of history. While I do not feel offended by the confederate flag, I do feel uncomfortable and slightly ashamed. The confederate flag reminds me that even people who purport to love freedom can support the objectification and (to create a bastardized word) cattle-ification of a race of people.

Unfortunately, as an american this is not the only time I feel that way. I also feel that way every time I see a native american, or the depiction of one used as a mascot.

There is one small insight that I have about the confederate flag though. I live in the north, and I work at a fast food restaurant that has a drive through. Every single customer who has come through the drive through with a confederate flag sticker on their car has been a total douche. I don't usually see it as they pull up from the speaker to the window. But, when I see it as they drive away I always think to myself, "that figures."

 

[Enkhidu]

...And in any event, a 10 year old kid ain't responsible for whatever people did 150 years ago. he's responsible for whatever good or bad he's done in the here and now independent of that.

This was among the lessons that I was taught as well, but I think new Progressive thinking rejects the notion. Otherwise we wouldn't still be having discussions about reparations, etc.

 

[Neonchameleon]

This was among the lessons that I was taught as well, but I think new Progressive thinking rejects the notion. Otherwise we wouldn't still be having discussions about reparations, etc.

The problem with this claim is that the consequences live on. The goal of reparations isn't to penalise. It's to level the playing field so the kids born to the descendents of slaves aren't screwed by inter-generational poverty.

 

[Enkhidu]

The problem with this claim is that the consequences live on. The goal of reparations isn't to penalise. It's to level the playing field so the kids born to the descendents of slaves aren't screwed by inter-generational poverty.

Oh, I agree that the consequences live on and need to be addressed - its why I have a hard time being cranky about affirmative action even though it can personally adversely affect me. However, you'll note I didn't talk about programs meant to level playing fields. I mentioned (specifically) reparations.

Reparations have an element of culpability and apology to them - by paying reparation you admit you screwed up and are trying to make amends. That we still talk about reparations today means that there's a sizable chunk of people who still hold the progeny of former slave owners (or who are simply of the same ethnic stock) personally responsible for slavery. In effect, the sons are still guilty of the sins of the father.

 

[Morrus]

This was among the lessons that I was taught as well, but I think new Progressive thinking rejects the notion. Otherwise we wouldn't still be having discussions about reparations, etc.

I think you misunderstand what reparations are.

They aren't punishment or blame assignment. They are recognition of the fact that certain groups *currently* still benefit from actions taken by their ancestors, and that other groups *currently* are disadvantaged from actions taken by the ancestors of those same people.

If I steal your inheritance from your parents and give it to my grandchildren, those grandchildren need to give it back to your grandchildren, who rightfully deserve it. Now add in 10 generations; same thing.

How many rich American "old money" families are black? Why are they currently rich? Because of stuff wrongly taken from others in the past ("stuff" including labour and freedom, too, of course).

Reparations are about returning ill-gotten gains which have been handed down through generations, and giving them back to the people who would have them now had they not had them taken from them generations before.

Obviously, it's done on a class of people basis rather than an individual basis, because that's the closest to a practical solution there is. It's not ideal, but investigating individual claims is an immense task, and not very practical. So we go with reparations as a reasonable mechanism.

 

[Enkhidu]

I think you misunderstand what reparations are.

They aren't punishment or blame assignment. They are recognition of the fact that certain groups *currently* still benefit from actions taken by their ancestors, and that other groups *currently* are disadvantaged from actions taken by the ancestors of those same people.

If I steal your inheritance from your parents and give it to my grandchildren, those grandchildren need to give it back to your grandchildren, who rightfully deserve it. Now add in 10 generations; same thing.

How many rich American "old money" families are black? Why are they currently rich? Because of stuff wrongly taken from others in the past ("stuff" including labour and freedom, too, of course).

Reparations are about returning ill-gotten gains which have been handed down through generations, and giving them back to the people who would have them now had they not had them taken from them generations before.

Obviously, it's done on a class of people basis rather than an individual basis, because that's the closest to a practical solution there is. It's not ideal, but investigating individual claims is an immense task, and not very practical. So we go with reparations as a reasonable mechanism.

Would you be open to reparations from the UK to Ireland? To India?

EDIT: Added India

 

[Morrus]

Would you be open to reparations from the UK to Ireland? To India?

EDIT: Added India

I feel like that is phrased as a challenge in some way, although tone is hard to detect on a forum. I am open to any valid claims of reparation, although it's not my decision. The UK has engaged in many reparations over the years, and rightfully so.

I gather from this that you are not?