The Current State of "Simple d20"?

[dunbruha]

C&C/3.5 hybrid

I have been mulling over using a hybrid of C&C and 3.5. The players would use the 3.5 rules, and I would use the C&C rules. This way, the players get all the bells and whistles of character creation, and I get the ease of game preparation and ease of convertability from d20 and 1e sources. So when a character needs to make a save or a skill check, he uses the 3.5 saves and skills. When a NPC/monster needs to make a save or check, I use the SIEGE engine. Attacks, hp and AC are pretty much the same for both. I also think I would get rid of the AoO, so some of the 3.5 feats would be worthless to take. And we would have to decide on a spell list (probably the 3.5 lists). What do you think? Are there any huge holes in this that I am not noticing?
The nice thing about this if it would work is that the players are playing 3.5 (except maybe w/o the AoO), and I get to play C&C!

-dunbruha

 

[Zoatebix]

That's actually pretty cool. I should pick up C&C just to see if I can get that to work.

The thread on Green Ronin's boards that I mentioned the other day is this one, by the way: http://www.greenronin.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6373

I should also mention the Undead President's upcoming Summa Fantasia system. Again - as I am on dialup, I shall rely on the kindness of others to provide a linky.
-George

 

[Breakdaddy]

The main problem is that I have two players who have a severe reaction against home-brew systems. They pretty much flat-out refuse to play in one (even though there is a strong undercurrent of unhappiness with the complexity of D&D 3.5). I can only attribute this to a traumatic house-rule experience sometime in their childhoods... Because of this, they pretty much demand a "published" system. Hence, the question that started this thread.

I feel your pain. However, since True20 is a printable PDF right now, I might do something slick like edit the PDF to reflect the basic changes you wish to make and then print out copies for the players use. They might not ever know the difference. I think this idea is worth a try, and hope you get to use it. This will allow you to use any and all old school material you might like, get the simplicity of C&C, and also the flexibility of True20. A win-win for all involved.

 

[morrigan]

Omni

Thanks, everyone, for all of the replies.

The best suggestion so far seems to take C&C and plug in the True20 skill/character system, and this might be the route that I go.

But...

The main problem is that I have two players who have a severe reaction against home-brew systems. They pretty much flat-out refuse to play in one (even though there is a strong undercurrent of unhappiness with the complexity of D&D 3.5). I can only attribute this to a traumatic house-rule experience sometime in their childhoods... Because of this, they pretty much demand a "published" system. Hence, the question that started this thread.

Now to cover various suggestions that people have made.

As far as Mutant & Masterminds goes. I am intimately familiar with this game, being that I am playing and GMing a campaign that has been going non-stop since the release of the game. We love it. But it strays pretty far from a number of standards that make it significantly incompatible with pretty much any version of D&D.

Also, I personally like the M&M/True20 damage save mechanic. Others in my group are not fans, and as I have said before, I think converting the damage save mechanic would be a significant, and ongoing hassle.

I am just now looking at CORE and it certainly is a step in the right direction.

Over-all, I am very surprised that no-one has done anything like this, but it looks like I will be doing it myself (if I can get others in my group to buy into it). If I do end up making my own system, I will make it available, if not for free then very cheaply on RPG Now...

As someone mentioned earlier... check out The Omni System. I think it might be what you are looking for.

 

[Zoatebix]

Ooh, I missed the Omni System earlier. Yoink.

I don't think I like Core Elements so much. It has some good ideas, but I wish they gave more advice and examples about how to put different ideas together to make things work. Just a rough idea for the range of damage ratings, armor ratings, and spell DCs at different campaign power levels would have been nice.

 

[Zoatebix]

Here's the link to undead presidents - they haven't updated in a while...
http://www.undeadpresidentspress.com/

 

[jaldaen]

Here's the link to undead presidents - they haven't updated in a while...
http://www.undeadpresidentspress.com/

We'll hopefully be updating the site soon with a new Design Diary... we had a busy summer with vacations not meshing and undead president's moving. However we are back into the swing of things and putting finishing touches on some of the chapters as I type this... We also spent most of the summer writing up adventures for Gen Con, which went quite well.

Keep you eyes peeled to our website for more frequent updates this fall.

I've got to get some work done before our meeting this afternoon, but I'll be sure to point out this thread to my other compatriots and maybe we can give you a bit more information about Summa Fantasia (though please do look at the Design Diaries as they will give you a good idea as to how SF works). Thanks for the plug Zoatebix...

Btw... if anyone is interested in being a playtester/rules reader should email me at: washington@undeadpresidentspress.com

Good Gaming,
Joseph Miller (aka That Privateer Guy, Undead Washington, Catfish... etc)

 

[Wraith Form]

Sounds dumb, but what about the Basic game? It's D&D3.5 for 12 year olds....and I think it's great! I'd like the skills and feats to be a little more complex, but aside from that it's very streamlined.

 

[jaldaen]

Sounds dumb, but what about the Basic game? It's D&D3.5 for 12 year olds....and I think it's great! I'd like the skills and feats to be a little more complex, but aside from that it's very streamlined.

This is what Undead Presidents looked at as our goal... to make a complete game from player's guide to game master's guide to monster guide all in about 320 pages or less. So far we are well on our way to meeting this goal.

Undyingly Yours,
Undead Washington (aka Joseph Miller, or is that the other way around ;-)

 

[scadgrad]

I have been mulling over using a hybrid of C&C and 3.5. The players would use the 3.5 rules, and I would use the C&C rules. This way, the players get all the bells and whistles of character creation, and I get the ease of game preparation and ease of convertability from d20 and 1e sources. So when a character needs to make a save or a skill check, he uses the 3.5 saves and skills. When a NPC/monster needs to make a save or check, I use the SIEGE engine. Attacks, hp and AC are pretty much the same for both. I also think I would get rid of the AoO, so some of the 3.5 feats would be worthless to take. And we would have to decide on a spell list (probably the 3.5 lists). What do you think? Are there any huge holes in this that I am not noticing?
The nice thing about this if it would work is that the players are playing 3.5 (except maybe w/o the AoO), and I get to play C&C!

-dunbruha

I've been playing in a similar fashion for over a year now. We port in attrib boosts and feats (for PCs and NPCs) from 3.5 and that keeps my players happy. Die_Kluge and one of the other players was very suspicious of the lack of skills, but they both readily admit now that they actually like the simplicity of not having to deal w/ them. Leveling up takes like 30 seconds or so and the DM/CK never has to deal w/ skills and feat nonsense for monsters.

I think the SIEGE system is vastly misunderstood and unappreciated by those who have not spent 4 or more sessions playing with it. Any CK worth his salt has a setting and backgrounds for the PCs making the uber-detail of most skill systems a rather pointless exercise in accounting. It's a tradeoff really, but I'm just happy that my players were willing to see if it would work and it has far exceeded our expectations. We actually started playing C&C over a year ago and the compromise was "let's see how this SIEGE engine works, and if we really miss skills that badly, we'll add them." It never happened. The players found that w/ a well-developed setting and backgrounds for their characters, the PC "skill set" in C&C is actually much more robust than the "limited-by a list" skill point system.

SIEGE and Prime abilities coupled w/ backgrounds (or secondary skills) works far, far better than you would think, but you've really got to give it a try.