So I’ve now run 2 campaigns and lots of little 4th ed sessions. What intrigues me is how much different the two were and what the end results have been on the player’s interest. The discussion moves in and out of 4th ed specifically but hopefully will give insights to others as they go to play it and other games.
Game one; KOTS module based game.
In this game we played till the end of the KOTS and had 25 character deaths, including 3 TPK’s (twice at the waterfall and once at the last encounter with the big man himself). 5-6 players played at a time in most cases and the party consisted of every major class at least once and was always balanced with at least one of each role. As issues we had:
1) All but one of the players were playing in another 3rd ed game around 10th level and had played together for many years. Myself and the 1 player were “new” to their group and had played together for 16 years.
2) My style was not theirs. I’m a tactical DM, they were more along the casual player lines, but more importantly, they were told by others before 4th ed came out it was more of a “casual players game” and treated it early as such. As an old school 1st ed DM, I am generally heartless when people make stupid or careless mistakes. We found a happy medium by the last session but it was too little too late.
3) As to the casual game expectation, there were no early comments of “its just a board game or video game”, i.e. they were not adamantly against 4th, but they defiantly were skeptical and were expecting it to be “lite”.
4) We played only 1-2 times a month with lots of breaks.
5) After the first TPK character investment went to basically nill.
6) KOTS is basically no stop combat with a lot of places where it is easy to die. The 30ft pit at the bottom of the hobgoblin entrance room was an example. Once you feel down, you were dead. No way to heal you, no way to port out, etc. The waterfall encounter was very harsh on them (the first time they did not 5 minute rest), but regardless of the module or my DMing or if it was their interaction issues, there was a lot of death, making continuous character development impossible.
7) In my games I use “tactics” as a skill. Basically to minimimize banter in my other games, I did not allow table cross talk but everyone once in a while (the leader could roll a DC 15 check to get their charisma in minutes to discuss everything before combat resumed. After the first success the DC goes up by 5 each time). This was a HORRIBLE idea with new players to 4th ed, which required a ton more PC interaction for successful play. We stopped it on the last session and things got MUCH better.
8) I do not run pregen modules often and it was obvious to me that my personal interest was much lower.
But in addition to these first issues which were not as much edition specific, we did things a bit differently than in my other campaign which I think mattered and were specific to 4th ed.
9) A LOT of the time it felt like a grind. I could have sped it up but was looking to see how premade adventures were myself. I played this thing very much by the book. Especially once we got into the dungeon (as I think about it it was more fun till we got inside. Do not know if that was the writing or just that I was interjecting more of myself into it…)
10) All characters were by the book, 22 point buys. They got a few minor bonuses (a regional boon specific to my world which were made before the FRG was out) and started with a few extra potions.
11) There was next to no effort by the players to coordinate. This matters a lot more in 4th.
12) Leveling was done often with new characters coming in. We soon had to minimize the starting magic of 2nd+ level characters whom came in better than the people whom had survived.
13) The guys bought into the “every class is the same” thought process of a lot of 4th ed haters early on and were all focused on damage more than roles.
14) I noticed that people looked down at their abilities more then looking at what they could do as characters. It really did feel like everyone was a collection of powers and hit points (especially after the first TPK).
15) It was common for people to compare the 3rd ed 10th level characters with the 1-3rd level characters of 4th. “There are less options.” Was commonly spoken.
Overall the effect was two of the players quit after the module, ending the campaign and everyone going back to 3rd save for me and the 1 player whom just stopped playing in the area.
In my other campaign, things could simply not be better. We have not had this much fun since 1st ed and things are very exciting every session. It has some advantages over the other game however. For example we have had (now at 4th level) 1 character death total and it is in my own home world.
1) Homeworld means I have more personal investment.
2) Players here have been playing together since (for the most part) the early 90’s and everyone has a positive attitude regardless of what we play (3rd-4th etc).
3) We had just finished up playing 17th level characters in a 7 year 3.0-3.5 campaign and everyone noticed instantly how much more they got to due per unit time in RL in 4th.
4) We play only once every 6-8 weeks, but play for a whole day (now a day and a half since everyone is enjoying it so much since the switch to 4th ed).
5) While we started with a few people really not interested in 4th, everyone came in and really tried it. There was not any preconceived notions. (i.e. no one came in wanting to dislike it). For example we all thought we would hate the 1 cost diagonals and lots of other gamist things, but found they made combat speed up and we soon did not miss them.
6) We use my tactics skill in this game, but its been this way for 15 years and everyone just thinks more tactically in the game. They know I do not flinch from “rewarding” stupidity or bad tactics so they are all think of what to do before their turns come up, etc.
But outside of these factors I found a number of things I did differently in this game (kind of as a reward to the players) regarding 4th ed have also contributed to a much more fun game.
7) Everyone started with 28 points. This has definitely made their character creation much more fun as they have a lot more options, especially for the multi-stat classes. This is not conjecture. The player in both campaigns has brought this up a number of times.
8) The 28 points also helps in speeding up combats and giving more exciting options. Thunderwave is go… Let me give you a save there buddy, etc.
9) Players have gotten into their roles and whom their character is. The paladin is ultra proud as a dragonborn and has taken feats and powers which reflect his altruistic nature. The wizard has found access to the swordmage and is multi-classing in it (partially because of his extra stat points) even if it is not the optimum build. They do not think of themselves as powers listed with hit points. They often interact with the world without using powers (strength check to push a mine cart into an enemy, bull rush a small target into a pit, swing on ropes during cliff based combat, etc).
10) I use something I call Auroras, which are effectively extra action points (which can be used even if you’ve used an action point in the combat already). At the beginning of each session I hand one out to the group and then at every milestone they get another to pass out. They then get some occasionally for good roleplaying, posting during downtime, character background, etc.
11) The Auroas offer incentive (and make warlords better as action points are more common) to do more encounters in the day as they do not go away after rests. But FAR more importantly, I think they have had a substantial impact on the player's fun by not allowing combats to grind. They simply end faster cause the players are using more actions.
12) I use the magic item dispersal from the PHB/DMG, not the KOTS “get very little” method. We still have people under 5th level whom come in after death not getting all three free magic items and have installed a -1 to all skill and attack rolls on people coming in till they hit 3 milestones with the players. This makes usre death has a penalty, but is not "free magic" or too crippling.
13) The greater number of magic items (as compared to KOTS), the stat points, and the auroras all, from my experience, greatly speed up combats and make the game much more fun for the players. It also lightly accelerates leveling.
14) The players love getting to level as there is always cool new option. I often add new at-wills, encounters, etc (often from unpublished classes in the same role) as options they can find along their adventures. For example, access to the FRPHB was found in one area but not in another, etc.
15) We made alterations to the wizard’s at-will after seeing mike mearl’s post. It has greatly enhanced the game and made him feel like a controller.
a. Thunderwave knocks prone on a critical.
b. Ray of Frost is a maximum of 2 squares movement, period (the way we originally played slow) and the target grants combat advantage if it moves.
c. Magic Missile can hit 2 targets if they are within 3 squares of each other. If it targets 1, it pushes 1. (if a control wizard, pushes both targets).
d. Cloud of Daggers gains: Sustain Minor
e. Scorching Burst goes to base 2d4 damage (brutal 1 if war wizard).
f. The Illusionist one allows a slide one when it hits.
16) He also found a magic item which allows the wizard to choose his daily and utility powers from his two choices on the fly instead of having the choose after each extended rest.
In the end the game is simply a lot more fun. Obviously the non-4th ed stuff matters a ton, but addressing real gripes from lots of peoples on this board, I found the 4th ed specific stuff can really make a difference. To summarize:
Non-rules specific:
1) People whom come in with a chip on their shoulders will not be converted, just don’t do it. Come in with an open mind and it works great,
2) Going into the game thinking it is a board game will make it feel like one. Thinking of it as a rules system for combat which underlies your roleplaying game and it solves a TON of the issues 3rd had.
3) KOTS is a horrid module which should not be used for introductions of the game to older players as it will solidify their boardgame thoughts. It is too much poorly structured combat with too few magic items which slows down the battles causing players to feel the grind early.
4) You must allow good over the table player to player interaction during combat or death will occur often, lessening then continuality of the game.
And for those playing 4th whom have started to feel some of the problems, here are what I have seen makes a big difference in the grind and feel of the game.
1) Give the players more stat points and they no longer feel they have to hit the “perfect build” and the greater number of options enhances the feel and does little to lessen the challenge IMO. 28 seems perfect because the players still have to make tough choices but get a number of good secondary effects and can “blend” builds (radiant warlocks and paladins I’m looking at you) much better.
2) Give out extra action points greatly increases the fun of the game and effectively acts like lessening the hit points of monsters except the PLAYERS get to have more fun doing it instead of you having to wing it.
3) I would highly suggest the wizard alterations to everyone. It is a significant improvement and makes the class feel much more powerful without much more “real” power.
4) Make sure your hitting the magic item parcels on target as it keeps the player damage higher and prevents grinds as often.
5) Remember to add incentive for continued exploration (makes daily management more fun and important) and roleplaying/background. I use aurora mainly but regardless of what ya use, it made a big difference in the two games.
Hope this helps someone and I’m interested to see what others have seen and done between campaigns? One thing I noticed is gourps I’ve talked to whom were in the 14-20+ range of 3rd in their current campaign switched over much more happily to 4th then the guys mainly playing in the 3-10th range.
See ya,
Ken
Game one; KOTS module based game.
In this game we played till the end of the KOTS and had 25 character deaths, including 3 TPK’s (twice at the waterfall and once at the last encounter with the big man himself). 5-6 players played at a time in most cases and the party consisted of every major class at least once and was always balanced with at least one of each role. As issues we had:
1) All but one of the players were playing in another 3rd ed game around 10th level and had played together for many years. Myself and the 1 player were “new” to their group and had played together for 16 years.
2) My style was not theirs. I’m a tactical DM, they were more along the casual player lines, but more importantly, they were told by others before 4th ed came out it was more of a “casual players game” and treated it early as such. As an old school 1st ed DM, I am generally heartless when people make stupid or careless mistakes. We found a happy medium by the last session but it was too little too late.
3) As to the casual game expectation, there were no early comments of “its just a board game or video game”, i.e. they were not adamantly against 4th, but they defiantly were skeptical and were expecting it to be “lite”.
4) We played only 1-2 times a month with lots of breaks.
5) After the first TPK character investment went to basically nill.
6) KOTS is basically no stop combat with a lot of places where it is easy to die. The 30ft pit at the bottom of the hobgoblin entrance room was an example. Once you feel down, you were dead. No way to heal you, no way to port out, etc. The waterfall encounter was very harsh on them (the first time they did not 5 minute rest), but regardless of the module or my DMing or if it was their interaction issues, there was a lot of death, making continuous character development impossible.
7) In my games I use “tactics” as a skill. Basically to minimimize banter in my other games, I did not allow table cross talk but everyone once in a while (the leader could roll a DC 15 check to get their charisma in minutes to discuss everything before combat resumed. After the first success the DC goes up by 5 each time). This was a HORRIBLE idea with new players to 4th ed, which required a ton more PC interaction for successful play. We stopped it on the last session and things got MUCH better.
8) I do not run pregen modules often and it was obvious to me that my personal interest was much lower.
But in addition to these first issues which were not as much edition specific, we did things a bit differently than in my other campaign which I think mattered and were specific to 4th ed.
9) A LOT of the time it felt like a grind. I could have sped it up but was looking to see how premade adventures were myself. I played this thing very much by the book. Especially once we got into the dungeon (as I think about it it was more fun till we got inside. Do not know if that was the writing or just that I was interjecting more of myself into it…)
10) All characters were by the book, 22 point buys. They got a few minor bonuses (a regional boon specific to my world which were made before the FRG was out) and started with a few extra potions.
11) There was next to no effort by the players to coordinate. This matters a lot more in 4th.
12) Leveling was done often with new characters coming in. We soon had to minimize the starting magic of 2nd+ level characters whom came in better than the people whom had survived.
13) The guys bought into the “every class is the same” thought process of a lot of 4th ed haters early on and were all focused on damage more than roles.
14) I noticed that people looked down at their abilities more then looking at what they could do as characters. It really did feel like everyone was a collection of powers and hit points (especially after the first TPK).
15) It was common for people to compare the 3rd ed 10th level characters with the 1-3rd level characters of 4th. “There are less options.” Was commonly spoken.
Overall the effect was two of the players quit after the module, ending the campaign and everyone going back to 3rd save for me and the 1 player whom just stopped playing in the area.
In my other campaign, things could simply not be better. We have not had this much fun since 1st ed and things are very exciting every session. It has some advantages over the other game however. For example we have had (now at 4th level) 1 character death total and it is in my own home world.
1) Homeworld means I have more personal investment.
2) Players here have been playing together since (for the most part) the early 90’s and everyone has a positive attitude regardless of what we play (3rd-4th etc).
3) We had just finished up playing 17th level characters in a 7 year 3.0-3.5 campaign and everyone noticed instantly how much more they got to due per unit time in RL in 4th.
4) We play only once every 6-8 weeks, but play for a whole day (now a day and a half since everyone is enjoying it so much since the switch to 4th ed).
5) While we started with a few people really not interested in 4th, everyone came in and really tried it. There was not any preconceived notions. (i.e. no one came in wanting to dislike it). For example we all thought we would hate the 1 cost diagonals and lots of other gamist things, but found they made combat speed up and we soon did not miss them.
6) We use my tactics skill in this game, but its been this way for 15 years and everyone just thinks more tactically in the game. They know I do not flinch from “rewarding” stupidity or bad tactics so they are all think of what to do before their turns come up, etc.
But outside of these factors I found a number of things I did differently in this game (kind of as a reward to the players) regarding 4th ed have also contributed to a much more fun game.
7) Everyone started with 28 points. This has definitely made their character creation much more fun as they have a lot more options, especially for the multi-stat classes. This is not conjecture. The player in both campaigns has brought this up a number of times.
8) The 28 points also helps in speeding up combats and giving more exciting options. Thunderwave is go… Let me give you a save there buddy, etc.
9) Players have gotten into their roles and whom their character is. The paladin is ultra proud as a dragonborn and has taken feats and powers which reflect his altruistic nature. The wizard has found access to the swordmage and is multi-classing in it (partially because of his extra stat points) even if it is not the optimum build. They do not think of themselves as powers listed with hit points. They often interact with the world without using powers (strength check to push a mine cart into an enemy, bull rush a small target into a pit, swing on ropes during cliff based combat, etc).
10) I use something I call Auroras, which are effectively extra action points (which can be used even if you’ve used an action point in the combat already). At the beginning of each session I hand one out to the group and then at every milestone they get another to pass out. They then get some occasionally for good roleplaying, posting during downtime, character background, etc.
11) The Auroas offer incentive (and make warlords better as action points are more common) to do more encounters in the day as they do not go away after rests. But FAR more importantly, I think they have had a substantial impact on the player's fun by not allowing combats to grind. They simply end faster cause the players are using more actions.
12) I use the magic item dispersal from the PHB/DMG, not the KOTS “get very little” method. We still have people under 5th level whom come in after death not getting all three free magic items and have installed a -1 to all skill and attack rolls on people coming in till they hit 3 milestones with the players. This makes usre death has a penalty, but is not "free magic" or too crippling.
13) The greater number of magic items (as compared to KOTS), the stat points, and the auroras all, from my experience, greatly speed up combats and make the game much more fun for the players. It also lightly accelerates leveling.
14) The players love getting to level as there is always cool new option. I often add new at-wills, encounters, etc (often from unpublished classes in the same role) as options they can find along their adventures. For example, access to the FRPHB was found in one area but not in another, etc.
15) We made alterations to the wizard’s at-will after seeing mike mearl’s post. It has greatly enhanced the game and made him feel like a controller.
a. Thunderwave knocks prone on a critical.
b. Ray of Frost is a maximum of 2 squares movement, period (the way we originally played slow) and the target grants combat advantage if it moves.
c. Magic Missile can hit 2 targets if they are within 3 squares of each other. If it targets 1, it pushes 1. (if a control wizard, pushes both targets).
d. Cloud of Daggers gains: Sustain Minor
e. Scorching Burst goes to base 2d4 damage (brutal 1 if war wizard).
f. The Illusionist one allows a slide one when it hits.
16) He also found a magic item which allows the wizard to choose his daily and utility powers from his two choices on the fly instead of having the choose after each extended rest.
In the end the game is simply a lot more fun. Obviously the non-4th ed stuff matters a ton, but addressing real gripes from lots of peoples on this board, I found the 4th ed specific stuff can really make a difference. To summarize:
Non-rules specific:
1) People whom come in with a chip on their shoulders will not be converted, just don’t do it. Come in with an open mind and it works great,
2) Going into the game thinking it is a board game will make it feel like one. Thinking of it as a rules system for combat which underlies your roleplaying game and it solves a TON of the issues 3rd had.
3) KOTS is a horrid module which should not be used for introductions of the game to older players as it will solidify their boardgame thoughts. It is too much poorly structured combat with too few magic items which slows down the battles causing players to feel the grind early.
4) You must allow good over the table player to player interaction during combat or death will occur often, lessening then continuality of the game.
And for those playing 4th whom have started to feel some of the problems, here are what I have seen makes a big difference in the grind and feel of the game.
1) Give the players more stat points and they no longer feel they have to hit the “perfect build” and the greater number of options enhances the feel and does little to lessen the challenge IMO. 28 seems perfect because the players still have to make tough choices but get a number of good secondary effects and can “blend” builds (radiant warlocks and paladins I’m looking at you) much better.
2) Give out extra action points greatly increases the fun of the game and effectively acts like lessening the hit points of monsters except the PLAYERS get to have more fun doing it instead of you having to wing it.
3) I would highly suggest the wizard alterations to everyone. It is a significant improvement and makes the class feel much more powerful without much more “real” power.
4) Make sure your hitting the magic item parcels on target as it keeps the player damage higher and prevents grinds as often.
5) Remember to add incentive for continued exploration (makes daily management more fun and important) and roleplaying/background. I use aurora mainly but regardless of what ya use, it made a big difference in the two games.
Hope this helps someone and I’m interested to see what others have seen and done between campaigns? One thing I noticed is gourps I’ve talked to whom were in the 14-20+ range of 3rd in their current campaign switched over much more happily to 4th then the guys mainly playing in the 3-10th range.
See ya,
Ken
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