• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

The Early Verdict (kinda long)

ardoughter said:
I am running a group through The Keep on the Shadowfell and there has been plenty of rp both during the combat and in Winterhaven. I have not read all the rulebooks yet but there seems to me to be as much rp advice and so forth as anyother edition of D&D.

The reason you don't understand is that you are ignore my words and making up something that has nothing to do with what I'm saying whatsoever.

I mean, what in god's holy name are you talking about with "rp"? Where do I mention "roleplaying"? What the devil does "roleplaying" even have to do with my post? The answers are nowhere, and nothing, just to give a couple of spoilers. Read my actual post, not some imaginary post by some cretinous hate-machine who is aying "D&D4E sux man theres no rp!". That's not what I'm saying at all. There's no question that there's plenty of room for RP in D&D AND MY BLOOMIN' SIGNATURE says that I agree with you about the RP advice. Did you even read that? I need a faceplam smiley, bad.

I'm saying D&D4E is so mechanically tight and balanced, so focused on fair encounters, "correct" treasure, balanced, equal classes, on focusing almost all abilities in and around combat, and making combat super-tactical and so on, and on "fun over making deep sense" that it narrows the range of what it can do, if you use it as directed. This has nothing to with roleplaying. That's not the issue in the least. The issue is basic system design limitations. Limitations which of course can be overcome by ignoring them, but we're talking about now and the near-future, not several years down the road. Making this problem a little more worrying is the GSL which prevents people from modifying rules etc. thus preventing 3pp's from creating variants which are a little less obsessed with these things.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

LostSoul

Adventurer
Ydars said:
3.5E could indeed be played as a highly tactical game, but it could also be played as a completely different kind of game where characters were not optimised for combat, but were characters to be played as characters. Because it had rules for everything, it could be played many different ways, much as earlier editions could.

My view is that optimization is taken care of for you, and that leaves you free to focus on your PC's character and personality.

Dark Eternal said:
One or more people have asked what mechanics 3.x had to make social or policital encounters better than 4th, and my jaw gapes. You must be joking, right?

When you considering Skill Challenges in 4e, you now have a mechanically-supported system to resolve political actions taken by the PCs in a way that a simple Diplomacy check never did.
 

helium3

First Post
Ydars said:
It is almost as if the party is now the focus, not the individual characters, at least in combat. I have tested the combat system and it plays very well, but there is something "not right" and I could not define it before.

I guess there is an association in my mind with a sophisticated sort of wargame. This type of game is great fun, but it is not an RPG. I am not saying 4E is a wargame, but there is an uncomfortable association that perhaps makes many of us unconciously uneasy.

I've never played a "big sandbox in a dude's garage" sort of wargame, nor have I played the D&D miniatures game. None-the-less, I don't think that 4E quite falls into the category of a wargame.

Here's the best explanation I can come up with.

In actual violent conflict, the tactical units that are the most effective are those that have a high degree of ability to work together as a team. Often, this requires that they know each other very, very well and have a fairly strong emotional bond with one another. You can't really make an effective fighting unit by throwing a bunch of highly skilled strangers together and telling them to execute the mission. On some fundamental level they don't really trust each other and can't anticipate each other's actions on the fly.

In 3E, it very much felt sometimes that the characters all just happened to be in the same place and fighting the same monster at the same time. The system itself seemed to encourage this by creating huge rewards for players that could think up twinky character builds. Essentially, while great for a more sim style of play, 3E was also a great system for anti-social prima donnas that didn't really care whether or not anyone else was playing beyond there being a cleric to heal them.

4E (what little of it I've played so far) seems to insist as a system that players work together in a way that people used to 3E just aren't familiar with. I'm having difficulty describing this difference beyond just saying that it requires the formulation of a good strategy before the encounter starts and the use of good on-the-fly tactics once the encounters starts and everyone starts "projecting power."

So yeah, combat encounters are definitely much more tactical and require players to think about what's going on and mentally engage. You don't want to take the option of "I hang back and do something sub-optimal" because that'll get the other character killed and you certainly can't be one of those players that does the whole "I'm helpless and refuse to learn how to play my character well" because (a) it's not hard to learn all the applicable rules now and (b) if you don't everyone dies.

And this is a good thing. Requring teamwork is AWESOME because it makes some of the more corrosive player behaviors that the hobby has long tolerated as typical "gamer behavior" a lot less tolerable.

Players that showboat, that lone-wolf, that don't pay attention or that simply refuse to play along are not going to like 4E and their groups are going to be a lot less willing to put up with that sort of behavior.

The only players I feel bad for are the ones that are only interested in roleplaying and are simply doing D&D because no one else wants to do anything but. Even then, the game's simple enough that they should still be able to contribute fairly effectively if another player has a lower level co-hort or something.
 

Cadfan

First Post
If I had a player who seriously, seriously wanted to play a combat ineffective character, I would

1. Make sure he REALLY WAS combat ineffective, and not just pretending, then
2. Adjust the difficulty of the encounters to assume a party of characters one smaller than I actually had. So if I had 4 competent characters, and a farm equipment repairmen, I'd make sure they fought encounters balanced for four PCs.
 

el-remmen

Moderator Emeritus
<mod>
Let's tone down the level of snark and sniping in this thread people, please.

You've been warned.

Thanks.


</mod>
 

Dark Eternal

First Post
Cadfan said:
I don't understand your point. Are you saying that my enjoyment of my heroic character is dependent on you playing a character who is sub par in combat? Are you saying vice versa? Its been ages since I played in a campaign where someone was playing an intentionally gimped character. Everyone in my 3e games played characters designed for, amongst other things, combat effectiveness. Was I not having fun, and I just didn't notice?

You are correct, sir. You don't understand my point.

Cadfan said:
Why does it seem that way? Is there something about having a perfectly orchestrated use of a daily power that interferes with your quipping talents? Are you worried that people will forget about your quip and remember your daily power? What's the logic here.

I believe that you and I are on different trains, Cadfan. If mine leaves the station heading south at 50 mph and two hours later, yours leaves the other station heading northeast at 34 mph, then how long will it be before you and I have any degree of common frame of reference?

Cadfan said:
Have you noticed that every character class in 4e has at least one social skill? The design intention was to make sure that every character can participate in social encounters, rather than having a "face man" who does all the social work while the rest of the party sits back and watches. Do you feel this is inferior design?

Inferior design? *sighs*
Look, you don't get it. I'm not here saying 4E is inferior to 3E. You may have legitimately gotten the impression I was, in which case I'd like to state for the record that 4E is not inferior to 3.xE. Both systems have their flaws, and ANY SYSTEM EVER MADE will likewise have it's flaws. It's just that the particular flaws I've bounced off so far with 4E do not inhibit people who want to play war machines. They do, however seem to inhibit people who want to play characters who triumph by ingenuity, wit and cunning rather than "apply power x to baddies 2,3 and 4 for the win!" Of course, you may not think that is the case. It may be different on your train. But that is what I see from mine.

Cadfan said:
That's fair as a general point.

Thank you. I do try to be fair as a general practice.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Cadfan said:
Have you noticed that every character class in 4e has at least one social skill? The design intention was to make sure that every character can participate in social encounters, rather than having a "face man" who does all the social work while the rest of the party sits back and watches. Do you feel this is inferior design?

Except for the ranger, anyway. So if it was an intentional point of the design, they missed one. Makes me wonder if it really was an intentional part of the design or rather a fortuitous accident that giving the fighter a social skill as a sop happened to leave only one class without a social skill as a class skill.

I'm not sure we can tell the difference between superior design but inferior execution and inferior design but better than expected execution in this case.
 

Orryn Emrys

Explorer
el-remmen said:
<mod>
Let's tone down the level of snark and sniping in this thread people, please.

You've been warned.

Thanks.


</mod>
*blinks*

I had wondered if I could start a very reasonable and well thought-out discussion without the thread earning a warning from the moderators. Your pardon, sir... it certainly wasn't my intention.
 

The Little Raven

First Post
Dark Eternal said:
They do, however seem to inhibit people who want to play characters who triumph by ingenuity, wit and cunning rather than "apply power x to baddies 2,3 and 4 for the win!"

Some actual evidence of this would be nice. Whenever I hear anyone say "This game prevents me from roleplaying," it usually comes down to "I'm having a failure of imagination."

What in 4th Edition prevents you from being cunning, witty, or ingenuous?
 

Derren

Hero
LostSoul said:
When you considering Skill Challenges in 4e, you now have a mechanically-supported system to resolve political actions taken by the PCs in a way that a simple Diplomacy check never did.

Too bad that Skill Challenges are broken (see math thread) and that they imo are more restricting than helping.
 

Remove ads

Top