D&D General The Elemental cantrips mimicking powerful spells

[greg kaye]

Yes, you can. Cast the spell to shape the water into simple shapes. A cube is a simple shape. Lasts an hour, does not require concentration, the 5 cubic feet rule still applies. Cast the spell again to freeze the water. Also lasts 1 hour. Cast the spell again to form another 5 cubic feet of simple shapes on top of the frozen shapes. Repeat so long as you have water and it's less than an hour since you started. All RAW.

The movement is instantaneous and isn't among the effects that are noted to last.

so,

... can you consecutively move a 5 ft cube of water upwards on repeated rounds and freeze it?

I'd certainly say that you can instantaneously move a 5ft cube at a 5ft diagonal so that it falls into a different area but, RAW, this feature is limited. You instantaneously move the water and then spend six seconds working towards whatever you're planning for your next action.

 

[AmandaBarbarian]

Mold Earth: How much does the 5 by 5 by 5 of loose dirt and stone weigh? Between 4 and 10 TONS. You can only move the dirt "along the ground", but if you move it along the ground onto an overhang that can't support it ...

Shape Water: You can't freeze water if creatures are in it. You can freeze it if there are creatures beneath it. If someone is diving, you can freeze their access to air. You can also move water and then freeze it to create walls that last for an hour. It can be an excellent way to block a doorway or small cave entrance. Also, "no creatures in it" could mean no creatures getting wet, or creatures within the 5' cube. If the DM is permissive, you can create a shell of ice around creatures, potentially.

Control Flames: You can move fire along really fast and get an entire neighborhood going quickly - especially a sorcerer that can quicken the spell to spread it 10 feet every round ... of course ....

Gust: This spell might just be capable of spreading fire faster than control flames. To some DMs, this seems like a very viable way to "fan the flames" and spread a wildfire quickly. I've also used it to kill enemies by pushing them off great heights, aerial mounts, etc...

all of these are good but I want to add the very first thing I thought when I read shape water and have used and seen used since.
Locked door or chest... pour/squirt water from waterskin, then freeze.

When water freezes it expands. DO you know what happens to most (not all but most especially less advanced) locks when the ice expands in 6 seconds? the lock breaks

 

[AmandaBarbarian]

Why not?

This is exactly what I mean when I say DMs so often shut things down that are the bread and butter of creative uses. You've just cut out essentially all ability to shape water into an object and then freeze it, which is like 90% of the utility of this spell. In so doing, you've turned what could be an INSANELY useful tool in the hands of a creative player into, at best, a toy with very rare edge case uses.

oh yeah, and ice knives. not the spell, but shape into a knife then freeze. Then throw it as a throwing knife.

 

[greg kaye]

This is exactly what I mean when I say DMs so often shut things down that are the bread and butter of creative uses. You've just cut out essentially all ability to shape water into an object and then freeze it, which is like 90% of the utility of this spell. In so doing, you've turned what could be an INSANELY useful tool in the hands of a creative player into, at best, a toy with very rare edge case uses.

Sorry, but those are the rules.
My guess is that they are written this way because a 5ft cube of water weighs ~7801.25 lb and 1st level fairy or aarokocra caster could take it virtually to the heavens before freezing it. Admittedly they might do something similar with a bag of holding but, at least there'd be a requirement for a bag of holding.
With some DMs you may need to stick with tools that are sanely useful.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The movement is instantaneous and isn't among the effects that are noted to last.

I wasn't moving it. I'm not using this part of the spell at all. I'm making it into a simple shape. This effect is not instantaneous, it lasts an hour. Then the shape is turned to ice. so IT MOVIES ITSELF by floating upwards.

Other things you can do are shape the water into a bowl. Then you can move water into the bowl instantaneously. Where, of course, it stays, because it's in a bowl.

 

[greg kaye]

I wasn't moving it. I'm not using this part of the spell at all. I'm making it into a simple shape. This effect is not instantaneous, it lasts an hour. Then the shape is turned to ice. so IT MOVIES ITSELF by floating upwards.

Cool, I was asking the question:

... can you consecutively move a 5 ft cube of water upwards on repeated rounds and freeze it?

 

[Corinnguard]

These four cantrips can be used together to forge weapons.

Mold Earth can be used to sift through earth to retrieve useable metal ore and create a mold for an axe's head or a longsword's blade.

Gust can be used to intensify the flames by providing a fuel source for the fire while Control Flames can do a controlled burn to melt the metal ore, which could then be moved into the mold using Mold Earth again. I can imagine Mold Earth can work on molten rock.

Can Mold Earth and Shape Water be used to temper the blades created this way?

If these four cantrips aren't useable by Artificers at the moment, they ought to be now. The Elemental Blacksmith subclass?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Cool, I was asking the question:

Which you can.

It's the same as move earth - there is no limit to how deep you can dig or how high a pile you can make so long as you have loose earth.

 

[greg kaye]

Which you can.

It's the same as move earth - there is no limit to how deep you can dig or how high a pile you can make so long as you have loose earth.

I guess that you could argue that you "cause the water to form simple shapes" from a 5 ft cube below to a 5ft cube above. All the same, even this describes shapes and not flying/levitating shapes. Good luck with any DM.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

I guess that you could argue that you "cause the water to form simple shapes" from a 5 ft cube below to a 5ft cube above. All the same, even this describes shapes and not flying/levitating shapes. Good luck with any DM.

No need to make flying levitating shapes. Ice Floats on WATER. Which I can shape. So I just pull the water underneath the ice and it goes up on it's own.

And I since am the DM, I would certainly allow it, since it's RAW, and I don't feel the compulsion to nerf interesting cantrips.