• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

The Escapist on D&D Past, Present, and Future

Klaus

First Post
There was a quote in there about comics that got me thinking: the state of roleplaying games is somewhat like the comic field right now:

You have the well-known Marvel and DC (D&D and Pathfinder), and some other less well-known publishers (Image, Dark Horse, etc. which would be akin to SJG, WW/Eden, etc.).

Nobody is attempting to force all those comic book readers under one monolithic world that has Batman rubbing elbows with Captain America and the X-Men and the Justice League trying to take down the combined Legion of Doom and Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. Sure, sometimes we see team-ups or crossovers, but that's a very rare thing these days.

Instead, each publisher takes their comics in the direction that (hopefully) their fans enjoy. They aren't trying to (overtly) steal each others fans, and fans can freely read DC, Marvel or whatever without having to be devoted to one superhero universe or the other.

The roleplaying game community should take a long look at that; we've now got a variety of systems that appeal to the different styles of play we each enjoy. We don't need to try and unite both sides in some misguided attempt to force our ideals on everyone else. We can survive having multiple versions of D&D just like the comic industry - or movie industry - or video game industry, if we back off and stop trying to tear out each other's throats and just play the damn game we like.
What he's saying is more akin to fans of a single publisher dividing up based on their preferred version of characters. Instead of a "Marvel vs. DC", he's comparing it to a "Golden Age DC vs. Silver Age DC vs. Bronze Age DC vs. New 52 DC").

For instance, my favorite Flash is Wally West. Imagine if, now that Barry Allen is the Flash again, I was allowed to publish Flash stories with Wally. Then the fanbase would split between "Team Barry" and "Team Wally" (or "Team Jay" or "Team Bart").
 

log in or register to remove this ad

DaveMage

Slumbering in Tsar
If it's Monte Cook; shouldn't it be Mike Mearls instead of the offhand/ dismissive Mearls?

"Mearls" is also Mike Mearls' EN world name. I doubt any insult is intended. (I certainly don't when I use it.)

Also, Monte Cook isn't the only "Cook" in D&D lore.
 

Mercurius

Legend
David "Zeb" Cook!

Anyhow, those articles were rather disappointing. I read them in backwards order, started with the Future--which didn't really talk much about the future or warrant any real discussion about it--and then the Present, and then didn't bother with the Past. I can't quite put my finger on it without re-reading them, but there is just something...odd...about how they were written. Warning flags went up with is rather disingenuous "In the spirit of full disclosure, I happen to be writing my own game..."

What was most disappointing was that nothing new was said. However, I suppose the silver lining is that Mike Mearls, once again, expressed a vision of D&D that I can really get on board with.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
Yes, but that's entirely the issue. If the game is set up so it's extremely daunting to come at cold (1,000 pages of Core Rules, $100 buy-in, whatever), then you're basically only selling to people who are already enthusiasts. The hobby can only grow by the network expanding organically - you have to know someone on the inside to help you along.

But that network isn't terribly easy to find. Many games don't talk about their hobby, for fear of ridicule (or, in some places, worse). Many others have their group, are happy with that, so feel no need to seek out (or even welcome) new players.

I had lived in Falkirk for three years before I found any other gamers in the place, and it wasn't that I wasn't looking. Given that I was actively searching, and that I already knew what to look for, what chance does a curious kid without that experience have?

If the game is created for, marketed to, and sold to those who are already enthusiasts, and if it remains hard to come in to cold, then Ryan Dancey is pretty much right - we're heading for the fate of model railways. Those kids who would be curious about the game, but don't have an immediate and obvious connection to the network? They'll go play WoW instead.
I'm all for expanding the game beyond its base. That said, I think it has to be done by people, not products. Is it realistic to think that a bunch of novices could pick up some books on *any* form of D&D and start playing cold? That just seems unlikely for a hobby that is inherently involved, complex, and requires a group.

By comparison, imagine a group of children picking up a football, going out to a field, and starting a game. That's not what happens. Either an older person who knows how to play teaches them or their parents sign them up for Pop Warner (or maybe they watch it on TV and give it a shot based on that). A group of novice theater enthusiasts doesn't usually get together spontaneously and stage a play, but there are plenty of clubs and classes that help them do that (although schools' art budgets are a concern there).

By comparison, people do pick up and play WoW, Dragon Age, and any number of other video games without much help, and a group of people will pick up and play a board game like Monopoly or Settlers of Catan based on the instructions inside the box.

My conclusion is that D&D has more in common with the former group. It is a socially based hobby, whose codifed rules are only part of a larger set of implicit rules which are determined by the group playing it.

I would like to see beginners start playing by themselves, and I applaud Paizo for its Beginner Box (I wish 3e had had a similar quality product). I think it's great that people develop their own styles independently that way (mine is certainly not what I would have learned had I not been relatively independent). That being said, I think even the simplest rpg rules are a tough starting point, because the broader concepts of understanding roleplaying, group dynamics, and how to interpret rules are things the books can't really teach you (the good ones do make an effort, though). There's also the stigma. Thus, I don't think that specialized beginner products will ever be the largest entry point to D&D. I think it will either be experienced gamers from other fields who are ready to pick up the full rules, or beginners being taught by veterans, either as friends or through some kind of organization. I wish there were more gaming clubs in schools.

***

All that said, the hobby won't die no matter what. Regardless of what happens with 4e, some version of 3.x will always be widely and freely available. There will always be a huge inherent audience of people who read Lord of the Rings, watch Game of Thrones, or play Dragon Age, all of which are going to be around a while (who reads books about model trains?). Most importantly, the inherent desire for creative expression that people possess isn't going anywhere. Some form of rpging has to be around to fill the enormous demand for it.
 

Did you actually play d&d back in the mid 70's? Because I did, and despite all the times I see people nowadays saying "oh, the rules tell you to use chainmail for combat", i don't think anybody did. Certainly none of the people I gamed with, heard about or knew via APAs.

The significance of the chainmail meme astonishes me. It is almost as if people read this on the Internet over the last couple of years and accept it as gospel. It wasn't and it isn't. Really.
Its not actually a meme. Both rules of D&D that first existed were miniature combat rules. Unless you want to actually contradict the creators of D&D.
And that's part of why 4e has trouble resonating with me. All editions of D&D have been pretty combat focused (you need rules for things you do a lot of!). What has made them interesting to me is that there is more than that. The game didn't stay CHAINMAIL. 4e seemed to come out in places and tell me rather explicitly that I was doing it wrong, by using it as a vehicle for something much broader than a combat engine.
I have a feeling though that the this was entirely accidental. There is an Gygax editorial which effectively stated that D&D is a combat game and that the focus on roleplaying is pretty dumb.
 
Last edited:

Plane Sailing

Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Its not actually a meme. Both rules of D&D that first existed were miniature combat rules. Unless you want to actually contradict the creators of D&D.

It is a meme in that people have said it a lot over the last couple of years or so, but it was pretty much never mentioned earlier - mostly because the relationship to chainmail was pretty much irrelevant to the way that everyone played D&D back in those days. This isn't contradicting the creators of D&D, it is reflecting the way it was actually played. The original rules had everything you needed to play the game. As others have mentioned, miniatures were pretty much only used to represent marching order; any wargaming roots to D&D were utterly hidden for pretty much all players - at least considering everything that was being written by and for players in the 1970's.
 

GreyLord

Legend
It is a meme in that people have said it a lot over the last couple of years or so, but it was pretty much never mentioned earlier - mostly because the relationship to chainmail was pretty much irrelevant to the way that everyone played D&D back in those days. This isn't contradicting the creators of D&D, it is reflecting the way it was actually played. The original rules had everything you needed to play the game. As others have mentioned, miniatures were pretty much only used to represent marching order; any wargaming roots to D&D were utterly hidden for pretty much all players - at least considering everything that was being written by and for players in the 1970's.

Off topic, not for you, but for others and adding to what you said for informational enlightenment...

IN MY OPINION...

Gygax was a great person, but he also had his own agenda. I think he REALLY wanted to push Chainmail. I think at the time he felt it was more his then D&D.

With the original rules, I think there were those that used the Chainmail rules in the early groups, but when it spread beyond Gygax's circle many read the rules and really didn't know chainmail all that much. They used alternate rules and it was awesome.

Furthermore, there was a rift at that time. Think of the 3e and 4e bitterness that you sometimes see. It was different, but in some ways similar, and it wasn't between RPG buddies, it was within wargaming in relation to this new D&D thing (actually in many ways it was towards your typical Wargaming and anything dealing with adding fantasy into wargaming...which D&D/chainmail would have been seen to be a part of).

There are some people that I wargame and boardgame with that I STILL don't admit that I've ever touched D&D...some of them are quite bitter against the fantasy stuff.

One of my better (albeit newer) Boardgame/Wargame friends just found out more recently that I "dabble" in RPGs.

Some old folks can be quite crotchety.

And you also had it where those that wargamed despised D&D because not only was it not a "real wargame" as it had fantasy, but it wasn't a Wargame at ALL!!!! The Horror!!! (that last part was sarcasm, just so you know).

By the time Greyhawk was released it was probably obvious what direction D&D was headed. In my opinion Greyhawk solidified what D&D was, is, and has been ever since.

Everyone after that basically used something akin to using a D20 via the rules, or almost everyone, as far as my opinion goes.

In some groups we actually used a variation with D6's many times.......

:angel:
 

Pour

First Post
And I was all, "Wait. No. My D&D has always been more than that!"

Your beef is with James Wyatt, I think, and we all agree some initial PR for 4e was terrible. His quote seems like a really easy shot at 4e after 3+ years, when many of us 4thers share the same opinion as you AND successfully use the current edition to meet our desires.

Skill challenges and rituals do not prevent us from achieving it, either. Ugh, this is so off topic, I'm really not trying to war here, I'm just acknowledging that, yes, James Wyatt said those things, yes he worked on 4e, and no, his blanket statement does not summarize 4e by a long shot. Can it be played that way? Totally. Is that the only way it can be played? No.
 


"D&D isn't one game, it's a range of games," said Mearls.

It sounds to me as if Mearls wants to apply the lesson "Stop trying to make the perfect Pepsi, start making the perfect Pepsis", which is explained in this excellent talk by Malcolm Gladwell:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIiAAhUeR6Y"]Malcolm Gladwell: What we can learn from spaghetti sauce - YouTube[/ame]

In my opinion, before they come out with 5th Edition (or whatever), they should revamp the Red Box, making it conform to the Essentials rulebooks, and allowing characters to level up to 5th level.
 

Remove ads

Top