D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

[FrogReaver]

That qualifies as SOME circumstances though doesn't it? Not every fighter fits that bill. Your fighter might also run out of ammo, or have it destroyed, or be disarmed, or be facing a foe with a high AC and cover from missiles, or be in a situation where the rogue has advantage and the fighter doesn't.

None of the fighters in our group use that combination and our only archer is currently an eldritch knight, who might consider swapping to an arcane archer once that option becomes available, I suppose. So, while your point is that there are SOME circumstances in which the Rogue's damage will be similar to the fighters, there will be others where this is a viable or superior tactic.

Of course. So what? You do realize that the optimized fighter is the only one that is keeping up with and surpassing a normally built ranger in damage for most of the game right? The ranger even gets added exploration abilities.

If you want to talk about unoptimized fighters being better with commander's strike be my guest, those fighters fit the OPs profile that fighters do inferior damage and have no extra out of combat abilities. Essentially they are inferior characters. The single extra feat they get for most every game isn't enough to catch them up. The extra attack at 11th level is but most campaigns end by then or just a few levels later. Even then they are still out exploration abilities.

Essentially the OP is right about all fighters except optimized ones. That's why all I am talking about here is the optimized fighter. It's the one build that a fighter fan can use to show that fighters are solid characters compared to the other fighting classes. If we aren't discussing them then the OP's point is spot on. Why are you even playing a fighter to begin with?

 

[Pauln6]

Of course. So what? You do realize that the optimized fighter is the only one that is keeping up with and surpassing a normally built ranger in damage for most of the game right? The ranger even gets added exploration abilities.

If you want to talk about unoptimized fighters being better with commander's strike be my guest, those fighters fit the OPs profile that fighters do inferior damage and have no extra out of combat abilities. Essentially they are inferior characters. The single extra feat they get for most every game isn't enough to catch them up. The extra attack at 11th level is but most campaigns end by then or just a few levels later. Even then they are still out exploration abilities.

Essentially the OP is right about all fighters except optimized ones. That's why all I am talking about here is the optimized fighter. It's the one build that a fighter fan can use to show that fighters are solid characters compared to the other fighting classes. If we aren't discussing them then the OP's point is spot on. Why are you even playing a fighter to begin with?

Yeah, I can only comment on the builds in our campaign, I'm sure none of which are optimised. The lead damager varied from encounter type to encounter type (counting only damage that mattered) and the characters do possess magical items, which will impact on damage too.

One could argue that if the fighter has nothing to bring other than damage the it should be leading in every encounter but if the optimised fighter is already ahead, it may be harder to see how the non-optimised ones can be brought up without making the optimised ones overpowered.

I wonder what form any of the weapon feats will take and whether that will impact more on fighter versatility.

 

[Tony Vargas]

1. How's the rogue getting advantage?

Doesn't matter, you'd only consider the option if he does (and, probably, if you don't).

2. The die is taken away. To let the rogue attack it requires 3 resources to be expended. One of your attacks, one of your bonus action attacks and a superiority dice. (In other words you could have made 2 attacks and got an extra use of precision attack if you didn't use commander's strike).

So two likely hits and one virtually guaranteed (though when may be uncertain) to give the rogue one extra SA attack, right then?

Sounds reasonable - if the rogue does maybe triple your single-attack damage...

...and if there's no chance of him making a similar attack with his reaction that round in some other way..

 

[Tony Vargas]

Essentially the OP is right about all fighters except optimized ones. That's why all I am talking about here is the optimized fighter. It's the one build that a fighter fan can use to show that fighters are solid characters compared to the other fighting classes. If we aren't discussing them then the OP's point is spot on. Why are you even playing a fighter to begin with?

So the OP's point was that the fighters bonus 'feat' couldn't be used to fix all it's problems (never mind that actual feats are technically optional). The optimized fighter uses optional feats, that bonus ASI, and a DPR maximizing strategy that sacrifices the little bit of in-combat flexibility the BM gets, to fix one of those problems...
...point stands, AFAICT.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Of course. So what? You do realize that the optimized fighter is the only one that is keeping up with and surpassing a normally built ranger in damage for most of the game right? The ranger even gets added exploration abilities.

If you want to talk about unoptimized fighters being better with commander's strike be my guest, those fighters fit the OPs profile that fighters do inferior damage and have no extra out of combat abilities. Essentially they are inferior characters. The single extra feat they get for most every game isn't enough to catch them up. The extra attack at 11th level is but most campaigns end by then or just a few levels later. Even then they are still out exploration abilities.

Essentially the OP is right about all fighters except optimized ones. That's why all I am talking about here is the optimized fighter. It's the one build that a fighter fan can use to show that fighters are solid characters compared to the other fighting classes. If we aren't discussing them then the OP's point is spot on. Why are you even playing a fighter to begin with?

I am not totally sure if dps is the right measure as optimization.
Trip attack might be much more useful than precision strike. Actually precision strike is just used to offset the -5 part of sharpshooter feat to enable the +10 damage.

Trip attack might be a lot more powerful. It grants advantage for any melee fighter attacking the target including youself. So it might be an even better damage enabler than precisison strike.
You can grapple afterwards to pin the target to the ground.

Admitted, a ranged attacker won't benefit from tripping a target, but everyone who hits due to advantage should count for the fighter .

 

[FrogReaver]

I am not totally sure if dps is the right measure as optimization.
Trip attack might be much more useful than precision strike. Actually precision strike is just used to offset the -5 part of sharpshooter feat to enable the +10 damage.

Trip attack might be a lot more powerful. It grants advantage for any melee fighter attacking the target including youself. So it might be an even better damage enabler than precisison strike.
You can grapple afterwards to pin the target to the ground.

Admitted, a ranged attacker won't benefit from tripping a target, but everyone who hits due to advantage should count for the fighter .

Maybe, my issue with trip attack is it eliminates focus fire by making your ranged characters want to target a different enemy. Focus fire is almost always a better strategy IMO.

It also never affects your first attack and only has a chance of occurring.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Its still 1d8 to 1d12 more damage. And if you are not the only one in melee, that is a lot of advantage you dish out. Might even be better than focus fire from the whole group. White room analysis is ok, but in actual play there are so many unreliabilities that dps is only one factor.

 

[Tony Vargas]

White room analysis is ok, but in actual play

Analysis can be objective, and can be verified. Actual play necessarily brings DM judgement into it, and can obscure the root contributing factors to any problems - done well, by compensating for those problems, so they're less likely to be noticed by the players.

IMHO, for any single table with a good enough DM, that's the best solution. Trying to 'fix' any specific issue, mechanically, is a different kind of challenge - those of us who like tinkering with systems may find it worthwhile...

there are so many unreliabilities that dps is only one factor.

True, it's just the single factor that's easiest to analyze - it comes already quantified, after all.; )

DPR is also the fighters strongest suit, by far, as its Action. Surge and Extra Attack features synergize powerfully with any per-attack damage bonus. And, it's bonus ASIs can deliver those bonuses.

But in the more varied realm of actual play versatility counts for a great deal more, versatility let's you address each of those 'other factors,' as they come up. The fighters versatility is at the low end of the spectrum. It's least-versatile archetype, the Champion has none to speak of, the EK less than any other caster (being initially restricted to 2 schools), and the BM, the 'complex fighter' option, as is evident, above, with its very few, all-low-level, locked-in, exclusively-combat maneuvers, has little more versatility, maybe less.

 

[FrogReaver]

Its still 1d8 to 1d12 more damage. And if you are not the only one in melee, that is a lot of advantage you dish out. Might even be better than focus fire from the whole group. White room analysis is ok, but in actual play there are so many unreliabilities that dps is only one factor.

There's really not a lot in 5e that's going to affect your ability to do damage. The following are the main effects that cause lack of damage. I'm sure there are a few others as well.

1. Lack of mobility or range to get to the enemy
2. 0 hp
3. Many Wisdom saving throw effects

Then there are the Shield Master specific issues:
4. creature has an extremely high str/athletics score
5. your melee allies must get in position to attack the enemy you just proned (not always the easiest task)
6. Only affects large creatures or smaller (though I can see how some DM's would rule it can affect any creature).

So, in a non-white room situation it seems to me that you have many more things that can go wrong for the melee Shield Master Fighter than you have that can go wrong for the CE SS fighter. In other words if you want to take this out of the white room then be aware you harm melee characters much more than you'll ever harm the CE SS fighter.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

There's really not a lot in 5e that's going to affect your ability to do damage. The following are the main effects that cause lack of damage. I'm sure there are a few others as well.

1. Lack of mobility or range to get to the enemy
2. 0 hp
3. Many Wisdom saving throw effects

Then there are the Shield Master specific issues:
4. creature has an extremely high str/athletics score
5. your melee allies must get in position to attack the enemy you just proned (not always the easiest task)
6. Only affects large creatures or smaller (though I can see how some DM's would rule it can affect any creature).

So, in a non-white room situation it seems to me that you have many more things that can go wrong for the melee Shield Master Fighter than you have that can go wrong for the CE SS fighter. In other words if you want to take this out of the white room then be aware you harm melee characters much more than you'll ever harm the CE SS fighter.

Never said anything about shield master

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