D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

[FrogReaver]

Aside from flavour or optimization there is a third reason why players may pick stats a certain way......Teamwork. They may pick a stat to be higher so as to not be a drain on party resources and not be in need of protecting/saving as often. They may pick a stat to be lower so as to not step on another character's niche. This reasoning for some reason does not get discussed as often as flavour/optimization.

Maybe, maybe what you are describing is just "team optimization". That's something these boards rarely look at because it's rare for a poster to know what the rest of the party is playing and ask for suggestions on what he should play.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

I am running a game where the social pillar is of such incredible value that the fighter dare not interfere, because failure is likely to get the entire party killed. You may have missed that part. This is a very long thread.

I'm beginning to think you should just play an entirely different game.

Maybe a video game.

 

[FrogReaver]

Why does no one every worry about making a strong athletic wizard...

 

[cbwjm]

Why does no one every worry about making a strong athletic wizard...

That could actually be fun.

The party gets to a cliff face and everyone is expecting the wizard to cast levitate to get up there only to turn around and see him pulling pitons and rope out of his backpack, getting ready to climb.

An enemy engages the wizard only to find himself knocked to the ground by the wizard who hides a herculean figure beneath his wizard robes.

As the party is relaxing at the local tavern, the wizard beats all challengers in friendly arm wrestling matches while the barbarian sulks in the corner.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

That could actually be fun.

The party gets to a cliff face and everyone is expecting the wizard to cast levitate to get up there only to turn around and see him pulling pitons and rope out of his backpack, getting ready to climb.

An enemy engages the wizard only to find himself knocked to the ground by the wizard who hides a herculean figure beneath his wizard robes.

As the party is relaxing at the local tavern, the wizard beats all challengers in friendly arm wrestling matches while the barbarian sulks in the corner.

I wanted to run a Dwarven Bladesinger for this specific reason. Too bad I can't Bladesong while in medium armor, plus the whole racial restriction thing.

 

[FrogReaver]

That could actually be fun.

The party gets to a cliff face and everyone is expecting the wizard to cast levitate to get up there only to turn around and see him pulling pitons and rope out of his backpack, getting ready to climb.

An enemy engages the wizard only to find himself knocked to the ground by the wizard who hides a herculean figure beneath his wizard robes.

As the party is relaxing at the local tavern, the wizard beats all challengers in friendly arm wrestling matches while the barbarian sulks in the corner.

Sure but while you think such a class could be entertaining, no one is talking about how gimped the wizard is that actually takes a high str. No one ever talks about that. No one talks about how bad he is at athletics compared to strength based characters. He's a total afterthought that gets no love. No one even notices he's missing. Why is that?

 

[Tony Vargas]

. THEY REALLY ARE NOT CONSIDERING OPTIMIZATION.

Optimization is a matter of degree, you can be disinterested in the internet extremes, but you can't long plead ignorance or indifference to 6 stats and what they do.

No really, don't try and refute what's happening at my table

Not trying. You can anonymously post your un-verifiable anecdotes all you want...

... people I've known most of my life. They're saying things like, "What should my wizard be like" and concluding that being particularly healthy or disease proof or able to engage in activities which require a lot of endurance just isn't their concept of a wizard. They're thinking "This guy is the nerd of this world, weak, maybe he has asthma, but damn he is smart!" That's often the kind of thinking they are engaging in.

.... And I think this is a matter of conflating your experiences with general experienc.

Take that insight and hold it up to a mirror. You're extrapolating from a long-standing group to the whole benighted D&D playing sub-sub-culture of the nerd sub-culture...

Then, without labeling/dismissing it as 'optimization,' consider the game, itself, before turning on options or applying variants, and consider what it implies.

Because we were actually talking about a class and it's features, not your circle of friends.

I have seen so many games that are role-playing first, that can go for four sessions in a row without a single combat. I know lots of players who literally would not care if their PC died as long as it was a good death that made sense in the world.

Same here, but they weren't playing D&D, and they weren't designing characters at odds with the systems they were playing.

You're right! Sorry [MENTION=6688277]Sadras[/MENTION]. I meant [MENTION=6775031]Saelorn[/MENTION] who said this:

That sound plausible. Don't take anything I've said in this exchange as siding with him...

 

[cbwjm]

Sure but while you think such a class could be entertaining, no one is talking about how gimped the wizard is that actually takes a high str. No one ever talks about that. No one talks about how bad he is at athletics compared to strength based characters. He's a total afterthought that gets no love. No one even notices he's missing. Why is that?

I think it's because the wizard has so many options with spells. Since fighters don't have all those spell options people tend to focus on the poor little fighter and his lack of options when it comes to something outside of fighting.

Personally, I disagree that a fighter (or other class) putting a high score in a stat that isn't traditionally associated with whatever people think their role is, is gimped.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Well, it just means that the trade-off is more difficult.

It would actually be harder if it were a nearer thing...

I would argue that makes fighter one of the more interesting, mature, and harder classes to play.

There is a definite system-mastery challenge to optimizing viability into a lower-tier class or against-type concept. And, of course, on the other side of the aisle, there's cred to be had in willfully making sub-optimal choices...
;P

I notice that the example, fighter character, Bruenor, in the PHB (Basic PHB, page 7) trades low Int and Dex for a high Wis and Cha.

Sure, but, really, for a fighter, once you've chosen STR vs DEX and gotten a decent CON, the rest is just re-arranging your deck chairs. Do you want to suck less at social skills with a +2 and suck hard at knowledges with a -1 or vice versa? Do you want to suck slightly less at spotting things and resisting fear effects or at initiative, ducking fireballs, and sneaking around?
These are the burning issues of our times...

If the social pillar is important to the campaign then it could well be worthwhile (even from a min/max perspective) to sacrifice some combat effectiveness for social pillar effectiveness.

Absolutely. For instance, by playing any class other than a fighter or barbarian. Not that you sacrifice all that much combat /effectiveness/, in any practical sense.

Likewise, if the rest of the party has dropped their 8 Score in Cha, then it could be very optimal, for the party, for your fighter character to have a base Cha of 14 or 15.

Nod, even a fighter could be the one-eyed man in such a party of the socially blind...

 

[FrogReaver]

I think it's because the wizard has so many options with spells. Since fighters don't have all those spell options people tend to focus on the poor little fighter and his lack of options when it comes to something outside of fighting.

Personally, I disagree that a fighter (or other class) putting a high score in a stat that isn't traditionally associated with whatever people think their role is, is gimped.

Would you prefer a different term like "less mechanically effective" "LME"??