D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

[Ancalagon]

Hunter's mark is a concentration spell. It can be hard to keep up at all time, from personal experience, and you then sacrifice other very useful ranger's spells.

 

[Azzy]

I'm currently playing an EK fighter (now up to 15th level), and I feel the fighter is a pretty solid class. It could use a few tweaks, but it doesn't need a major overhaul. As far as the base class, I'd make Second Wind scale better, and change Indomitable altogether (it should either be a bonus to non-proficient saves that scales with level, or an automatic save that is regained on a short rest like most of the fighter's abilities).

For non-combat abilities, I think those should be placed in the subclasses rather than the base class because the class is supposed to cover a wide range of archetypes rather than forcing a particular concept on the player.

Let’s take a stab at the three subclasses in the PHB. Maybe I’ll look at the name and expand upon them a little bit better:

Champion
What does champion mean? They’re the best. What’s something champions share? Their people like them. Whether they’re athletes or war heroes or whatever, the common people love a champion. As a ribbon, give them some type of social advantage with common folk. Yes, this overlaps a bit with Folk Hero, but the two would stack. Your town loves you, your enemies fear you. Combined with their half proficiency on physical checks (which should stack with proficiency), they’d have an edge in exploration too.

Battle Master
What is the Battle Master? Their artisans tool proficiency makes me think of a literal artist, an artist of war, a martial artist. Their level 7 size up their opponents ability is really good and flavorful. Give it some more oomph. Let it be used a little faster. Make them especially intimidating to other warriors. Expand upon the maneuvers and have some that can work out of combat (bonus to intimidate, bonus to athletics or acrobatics).

Eldritch Knight
Yeah, they have spells, but I doubt they’ll be using them out of combat. I’m really at a loss here. Maybe give them free Arcana proficiency (because it’s really weird they don’t have it). Just a bone of a ribbon.

I could totally get on board with these.

In regards to the Battlemaster, I think it could use more maneuvers in general (in addition to the out-of-combat ones you're suggesting), as well as including level-gated maneuvers.

 

[Azzy]

They are /really/ good, relative to the other classes in 5e, yeah. But saves are really bad in 5e. You have six of them to cover, you can't possibly boost all six of your stats, and you only get proficiency in 2. So at least two and often 4 of your saves are going to be terrible, and at most one is going to actually keep pace with DCs as you level.

For me, saves getting better across the board as you leveled is something that WotC-era D&D shouldn't have abandoned, and one of the few things that 5e didn't re-wind to that it actually should have.
The fighter is the stand-out victim of that, because, back in the day, it's saves, though they started out poor-to-middling, improved the fastest. That was a real advantage, and always seemed like an appropriate one, to me: the class that couldn't /do/ magic could at least stand up to it.
And, yes, there's feats for that, and boosting a tertiary stat with a bonus ASI even if not feats are available does give you a whole +1 to the corresponding save. With DCs scaling from under 13 to 19+, though, that's a +1 stacking up against a 36-point deficit.

The fighter's higher level abilities need some work as well- the super underwhelming ability to reroll a save comes to mind; more save proficiency would have been A LOT better (and been more like the AD&D fighter).

In regards to saves, I think you guys are definitely on point.

 

[DaviMMS]

Ok, this is how I see it. Let's do a little white room theory crafting.

Assumptions:

• Both archer fighter and archer ranger start with the same combat stats.
• Both take sharpshooter at 4th and the fighter takes an ASI at 6th so he's got +1 to hit and damage
• 6th level
• an adventuring day that is 20 rounds long and includes two short rests.
• Ranger takes Colossus Slayer for simplicity
• Fighter is Battlemaster

So, 20 rounds of combat means the fighter gets 46 attacks to the ranger's 40. Presuming a 60% hit rate (or thereabouts) the fighter hits 28 times (rounding up) and the ranger hits 24 times. Ok, so our fighter deals an extra 12d8 damage (again assuming Battlemaster) +28 for an average of 82 points of damage over an above weapon and sharpshooter. The ranger is likely going to get Colossus Slayer 60% of the time, for an additional 14d8 damage (14 rounds of CS out of 20), plus he's 6 hours of Hunter's Mark to play with meaning he's likely going to get that about 80% of the time for an additional 19d8 points of damage. He averages 33d8 points of damage over and above weapon and sharpshooter for 148 points of additional damage.

IOW, our 6th level ranger is dealing about 30% more damage over the BEST DAY that a fighter can have.

So, how is the fighter catching up that 40 points of damage? Note, that while the fighter does have +1 to hit, the ranger is getting advantage on attacks in the first round of combat most of the time. That's mostly a wash, if not an advantage to the ranger since he can use Sharpshooter in the first round of combat most of the time without any real penalty nor needing any outside help.

This is why I'm not seeing how fighters are even remotely in the same league as other classes. And it shouldn't be like that. Fighters give up any out of combat abilities - no tracking bonuses, no movement bonuses, no spells, nothing. Fighters should be the clear winner in any DPR competition. At the absolute best, they get to equal another class.

And if it takes 11 levels just to finally pull ahead, then something is seriously wrong.

So... Both take SS but never use it?

And the fighter uses his dice for extra damage instead of using precision to turn near misses into hits?

Lets run the numbers with a fighter that actually knows what he is doing

You said 20 rounds, with 2 short rests. Lets assume that means 5 combats with 4 rounds.

If we follow the DMG guidelines for AC per CR, normal characters are always hitting with at least an 8 (65% hit chance) if he uses his ASIs for rising their main stats at 4th and 8th. Considering that both have SS, the fighter has a 75% hit chance (due to his extra ASI and archery fighting style) and the ranger has 70% (only archery fighting style). With SS that becomes 50% and 45%.

Lets go with the fighter first

We have 20 rounds, so that means 46 attacks for the fighter (40 from extra attack and 6 from Action Surge)

Each attack deals 1d8+4+10=18,5
With 50% hit chance, that means an average of 9.25 damage per attack
9.25x46=425.5
Now lets use our SD. With two short rests fighters get 12. Lets consider that all are used with precision and 2/3 (8) actually turn a miss into a hit.
So we get 8x18,5 = 148
Figher total damage over a day= 425,5+148 = 573.5 points of damage

Now lets run the ranger numbers
20 rounds
5 of those are 5 turns are 1st turns, so the ranger has advantage in 10 attacks (around 0.7 hit chance), and 15 rounds are normal, so 30 attacks are at normal hit chance (0.45)
Lets consider that Hunter's Mark is present on all attacks, for simplicity sake.
That means the ranger is dealing 1d8+1d6+3+10=21
10 attacks with advantage means
21x0.7=14,7x10=147 points of damage
30 normal attacks means
21x0.45= 9.45 x 30 = 283.5 points of damage
Now, we also have Colossus Slayer (1d8 every turn, 4,5x20=90 points

Ranger Total damage = 147+283,5+90= 520.5

So, a figher that actually knows what he is doing, does over 50 points of damage over the ranger under your guidelines, even considering hunter's mark and colossus slayer triggers every single round.

Now lets see an actually fully optimised fighter build (which means SS and CBE)
It's hit chance is now the same as the ranger, as he now have two feats, instead of a feat and an ASI, but he now have 3 attacks per round.
Each attack deals 1d6+3+10=16,5
16,5x0.45(hit chance)= 7.425
We have 20 rounds. With 3 attacks and action surge, that means 66 attacks (action surge gives only 6 extra attacks because the 3rd attack happens on bonus actions)
So 66x7.425= 490.05
Now we have 8 attacks becoming hits due to precision maneuver
8x16.5=132

Total Damage= 622.05 points of damage.
Thats over 100 points of damage more than the ranger.

The fighter do have some problems in 5E, IMO. But lack of damage is not one of them.

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[FlyingChihuahua]

An idea to improve the Fighter's combat prowess I like (and saw here) is basically give them an Improved Fighting Style at around 7th-10th level.

Gives the Fighter an edge in combat and adds to the flavor of them being the best at fighting.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

With all number-crunching, 'theory-crafting' aside, I find the fighter to be pretty much what I expect. If I have a concept the fighter doesn't fit into I choose another class where that concept works. I also find that the fighter has fewer important attunement items than other classes, leaving them space for interesting capabilities via magical gear.

 

[smbakeresq]

So... Both take SS but never use it?

And the fighter uses his dice for extra damage instead of using precision to turn near misses into hits?

Lets run the numbers with a fighter that actually knows what he is doing

You said 20 rounds, with 2 short rests. Lets assume that means 5 combats with 4 rounds.

If we follow the DMG guidelines for AC per CR, normal characters are always hitting with at least an 8 (65% hit chance) if he uses his ASIs for rising their main stats at 4th and 8th. Considering that both have SS, the fighter has a 75% hit chance (due to his extra ASI and archery fighting style) and the ranger has 70% (only archery fighting style). With SS that becomes 50% and 45%.

Lets go with the fighter first

We have 20 rounds, so that means 46 attacks for the fighter (40 from extra attack and 6 from Action Surge)

Each attack deals 1d8+4+10=18,5
With 50% hit chance, that means an average of 9.25 damage per attack
9.25x46=425.5
Now lets use our SD. With two short rests fighters get 12. Lets consider that all are used with precision and 2/3 (8) actually turn a miss into a hit.
So we get 8x18,5 = 148
Figher total damage over a day= 425,5+148 = 573.5 points of damage

Now lets run the ranger numbers
20 rounds
5 of those are 5 turns are 1st turns, so the ranger has advantage in 10 attacks (around 0.7 hit chance), and 15 rounds are normal, so 30 attacks are at normal hit chance (0.45)
Lets consider that Hunter's Mark is present on all attacks, for simplicity sake.
That means the ranger is dealing 1d8+1d6+3+10=21
10 attacks with advantage means
21x0.7=14,7x10=147 points of damage
30 normal attacks means
21x0.45= 9.45 x 30 = 283.5 points of damage
Now, we also have Colossus Slayer (1d8 every turn, 4,5x20=90 points

Ranger Total damage = 147+283,5+90= 520.5

So, a figher that actually knows what he is doing, does over 50 points of damage over the ranger under your guidelines, even considering hunter's mark and colossus slayer triggers every single round.

Now lets see an actually fully optimised fighter build (which means SS and CBE)
It's hit chance is now the same as the ranger, as he now have two feats, instead of a feat and an ASI, but he now have 3 attacks per round.
Each attack deals 1d6+3+10=16,5
16,5x0.45(hit chance)= 7.425
We have 20 rounds. With 3 attacks and action surge, that means 66 attacks (action surge gives only 6 extra attacks because the 3rd attack happens on bonus actions)
So 66x7.425= 490.05
Now we have 8 attacks becoming hits due to precision maneuver
8x16.5=132

Total Damage= 622.05 points of damage.
Thats over 100 points of damage more than the ranger.

The fighter do have some problems in 5E, IMO. But lack of damage is not one of them.

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Ok, so over the first 10 levels of his career the fully optimized for combat fighter get to do 50 more points of damage over a 20 round day, and then 100 more at level 11, as an archer as opposed to a ranger. That’s also assuming you the extra damage isn’t wasted through overkill, but that’s spilt milk.


The entire advantage a fighter gets is 2.5 scaling to 5 points of damage per round. That’s it. In almost every other situation in the game the ranger will be better and more importantly have more to do and be more involved in the game. That’s the point.


If all you are going to do is be the best in combat the advantage should be much greater, on the order of 10 points per round and then 20 points per round using your example above. Those feats you selected as to optimize the fighter should be for the fighter only, then it would stand out on its own.


Another way to look at it is this. Let’s say the base fighter chassis is everything the fighter gets now plus the whole Champion path, then you got to choose a subclass. That would be closer to the mark and in no way OP. Compare to the base Paladin chassis, the base fighter plus champion path is about the same, the base Paladin might be better and more universally useful and the fighter path would be better at combat, but only a little.


I am in a game now, I will try a fighter + Champion + BM subclass to see how it is at the table and post. I do think it would be VG at combat compared to others, but then it should be, isn’t that the point of the fighter?

I think what got Wizards in this spot is they needed a base class for “regular” soldiers and monsters and such that used to be filled by the warrior type. They changed those NPCs where they don’t really fit into any class that PC get but kept that mentality.


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[TwoSix]

But that's the thing - those roleplaying hooks, they kind of limit you - there is a lot of variation on how a paladin (esp in 5e... perhaps too much) or a ranger can be, but far less than how a fighter could be. The fighter can be almost *anything you want*. Those roleplaying hooks almost sound like rolepaying *crutches*...

Sure, but at this point you're arguing about the value of generic classes over specific classes. It's an fundamental aesthetic difference that caused point-buy to proliferate in one direction, and concepts like Rifts O.C.C.s and R.C.Cs in the other direction.

 

[Smarmot]

I personally don't like taking something that is giving me a minus 5 to hit when I'm only a so so shot to begin with.
Perhaps if I had some sort of resource that could turn a miss into a hit...

 

[smbakeresq]

I personally don't like taking something that is giving me a minus 5 to hit when I'm only a so so shot to begin with.
Perhaps if I had some sort of resource that could turn a miss into a hit...

The -5 never really “happens” though. You choose to use it, so you use it when blessed or under advantage or both so it effectively cancels it out.


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