D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

[DaviMMS]

Um, that's not an average fighter day.  That's the absolute best fighter day - 2 short rests and a long adventuring day.  Shorter days, or longer single fights will advantage the others.  Note, you can't Colossus Slayer every attack - I actually only took either at about 75% of hits for my analysis and still came way out ahead for the ranger.

Well, 2 shorts rests in a long adventure day is supposed to be the pattern according to the DMG, but, based on your comments, I think both of us would agree that those assumptions are stupid. Smaller days are much more common while days with 6-8 combats and 2 short rests are about the longest days I have seen, but YMMV.

Unfortantly, the game was balanced under those assumptions.

And he was talking about my calculations when he said about Hunter's Mark and Collosus slayer trigerring on every round.

The only way the fighter pulls ahead is if he Precision Strikes every single chance he can, and takes nothing but combat focused feats.  And it presumes that every action surge is used for nothing but attacks - a fair assumption for a ranged fighter to be sure.

And he should not use precision or use Action Surge for extra attacks on a pure damage calculation, because...?

I known that, in play, there will be situations where the better course of action will not be simply attacking, but there is no way to take those into consideration on simple calculations, and they affect both the ranger and the fighter

A great day ranger would be one or two longer fights in a day - that way he gets hunters mark every round, plus additional spell damage.

So let's make those calculations, I will not explain where the numbers come from again, see my other post for it.

1st Simulation (2 combats in the day, with 6 rounds each one)

Fighter (SS+ASI)

18.5x0.5=9.25x26=240.5
18.5x3 = 55.5 (Precision turning 3 misses into hits)
Total Damage = 296.0

Ranger (Only SS)

2 rounds with Advantage (0.7 hit chance)
21x0.7=14.7×4 = 58.8
10 Without (0.45 hit chance)
21×0.45= 9.45x20 = 189
Colossus Slayer (4.5x12=54)(40.5 with 75% assumption)

Total Damage = 301.8 (288.3 with 75% assumption)

Fighter (CE+SS)
16.5x0.45= 7.425 × 38 attacks = 282.15
16.5x3=49.5 (Precision turning 3 misses into hits)
DPR= 22.275
Total = 331.65

So, even with 0 short rests, the fully optimized fighter is still ahead, while the SS+ASI one falls behind by a very small amount. If we consider that Colossus Slayer only happens 75% of the time (like you suggested), instead of 100%, the ranger loses 13.5 points of damage and is again behind both fighters (although by a very small amount from the SS+ASI).

2nd Simulation (2 combats in the day, with 10 rounds each one)

Fighter (SS+ASI)

18.5x0.5=9.25x42=388.5
18.5x3 = 55.5 (Precision turning 3 misses into hits)
Total Damage = 444

Ranger (Only SS)

2 rounds with Advantage (0.7 hit chance)
21x0.7=14.7×4 = 58.8
18 Without (0.45 hit chance)
21×0.45= 9.45x36 = 340.2
Colossus Slayer (4.5x20=90)(67.5 with 75% assumption)

Total Damage = 489 (466.5 with 75% assumption)

Fighter (CE+SS)
16.5x0.45= 7.425 × 62 attacks = 460.35
16.5x3=49.5 (Precision turning 3 misses into hits)
Total = 509.85

So, even with fully biased numbers for the ranger, a fully optimized fighter is still ahead on damage, although now the SS+ASI fighter in behind even with 75% time on colossus slayer.

The point is well made though, I think.  Even giving the fighter every possible advantage, he's barely beating out the ranger.  Yes, I did use the revised ranger, and I should have put that in the assumptions.  I think once Xanathar's comes out, the revised ranger will likely be standard.  PHB Ranger?  Fair enough, the fighter is likely doing much better in comparison.

100 points of damage over 20 rounds is a increase of 5 in the DPR. I don't consider that "barely beating out the ranger.". That's a significant difference IMO. I also don't think those calculations were too generous for the fighter.

One question though, why do people think that things like the +5/-10 feats are best with fighters?  That's only true after 11th level with the third attack.  Otherwise, they are equally good for all fighter types.  And, let's not forget, at 11th level, that ranged ranger has up to 13 attacks per round with volley, all of which can be sharp shootered.  Not good for focus fire, to be true, but, it's going to be pretty regular that our ranger is going to get 3-5 attacks in a given round starting at 11th level.  It's not that out of line to have at least 3 targets in a circle 25 feet in diameter.  The ranger is basically getting a mini fireball by that level, and only has to spend one of his 11 spells per day to get hunters mark all the time.

The feats being better for fighters point was already addressed, so I won't repeat it.

But is also worth of notice that Volley does not comes even close to the value of a 3rd attack. IMO, in most situations focus firing in a better a idea. Volley us pretty good for clearing hordes of minions, but not for much else.

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[FrogReaver]

Well, 2 shorts rests in a long adventure day is supposed to be the pattern according to the DMG, but, based on your comments, I think both of us would agree that those assumptions are stupid. Smaller days are much more common while days with 6-8 combats and 2 short rests are about the longest days I have seen, but YMMV.

Unfortantly, the game was balanced under those assumptions.

And he was talking about my calculations when he said about Hunter's Mark and Collosus slayer trigerring on every round.


And he should not use precision or use Action Surge for extra attacks on a pure damage calculation, because...?

I known that, in play, there will be situations where the better course of action will not be simply attacking, but there is no way to take those into consideration on simple calculations, and they affect both the ranger and the fighter



So let's make those calculations, I will not explain where the numbers come from again, see my other post for it.

1st Simulation (2 combats in the day, with 6 rounds each one)
[Fighter (SS+ASI)

18.5x0.5=9.25x26=240.5
18.5x3 = 55.5
Total Damage = 296.0

Ranger (Only SS)

2 rounds with Advantage (0.7 hit chance)
21x0.7=14.7×4 = 58.8
10 Without (0.45 hit chance)
21×0.45= 9.45x20 = 189
Colossus Slayer (4.5x12=54)(40.5 with 75% assumption)

Total Damage = 301.8 (288.3 with 75% assumption)

Fighter (CE+SS)
16.5x0.45= 7.425 × 38 attacks = 282.15
16.5x3=49.5
DPR= 22.275
Total = 331.65

So, even with 0 short rests, the fully optimized fighter is still ahead, while the SS+ASI one falls behind by a very small amount. If we consider that Colossus Slayer only happens 75% of the time (like you suggested), instead of 100%, the ranger loses 13.5 points of damage and is again behind both fighters (although by a very small amount from the SS+ASI).

2nd Simulation (2 combats in the day, with 10 rounds each one)

Fighter (SS+ASI)

18.5x0.5=9.25x42=388.5
18.5x3 = 55.5
Total Damage = 444

Ranger (Only SS)

2 rounds with Advantage (0.7 hit chance)
21x0.7=14.7×4 = 58.8
18 Without (0.45 hit chance)
21×0.45= 9.45x36 = 340.2
Colossus Slayer (4.5x20=90)(67.5 with 75% assumption)

Total Damage = 489 (466.5 with 75% assumption)

Fighter (CE+SS)
16.5x0.45= 7.425 × 62 attacks = 460.35
16.5x3=49.5
Total = 509.85

So, even with fully biased numbers for the ranger, a fully optimized fighter is still ahead on damage, although now the SS+ASI fighter in behind even with 75% time on colossus slayer.


100 points of damage over 20 rounds is a increase of 5 in the DPR. I don't consider that "barely beating out the ranger.". That's a significant difference IMO. I also don't think those calculations were too generous for the fighter.



The feats being better for fighters point was already addressed, so I won't repeat it.

But is also worth of notice that Volley does not comes even close to the value of a 3rd attack. IMO, in most situations focus firing in a better a idea. Volley us pretty good for clearing hordes of minions, but not for much else.

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I may be missing it but I don't see where you added in precision. With no short rests precision adds somewhere between 5% and 10% chance to hit.

 

[Ancalagon]

It is. Its quite clear the fighter was designed first

This is *very* likely

then the other marital classes,

Eric's Grandma good sir!

then they never went back to the fighter and brought it inline with the others

Possibly. I think the fighter just need a tiny nudge.

 

[Hussar]

/snip

(I find it weird you give Volley a 25ft diameter. I always give it a 20 ft diameter)

You do not include the target in the area of effect. It's 10 feet from the target, which means that the circle is 25 feet in diameter, presuming a medium target. Granted, against a larger or huge target, the circle would be bigger. Just a weirdness of how you calculate AOE's in 5e.

But, I do get what you're saying about the feats though. Thanks.

 

[FrogReaver]

You do not include the target in the area of effect. It's 10 feet from the target, which means that the circle is 25 feet in diameter, presuming a medium target. Granted, against a larger or huge target, the circle would be bigger. Just a weirdness of how you calculate AOE's in 5e.

But, I do get what you're saying about the feats though. Thanks.

Any specific rule for them being calculated that way? I can see if you play on a grid doing that. I usually play TOTM and I can't see doing it that way. But I can't recall ever seeing a rule on that. Just curious on this one.

 

[smbakeresq]

First off a adventuring day that has 6 combats of 4 rounds each with 2 short rests is 2 combats, short rest, 2 combats, short rest, 2 combats is an assumption that greatly favors a fighter. I have rarely seen that and its a perfect day for a fighter who relies on short rests, he gets to use AS in half his combats and keeps recharging his BM dice. The Paladins burst is dependent on LR but the Paladins other abilities keep going. The Rangers abilities are best in extended combats. In all the games I have played and DMed its 3-5 combats of 3-6 rounds each, then SR and the 3-5 more then day is over.

Second though, once again, its all the fighter will ever get, a damage benefit that is measured in single digit numbers over optimized conditions. He gets nothing else. That's the point.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Why exactly should the ranger be weaker than the fighter?
Last time everyone was picking at the ranger... the phb does not need as much revision as many might think because he is pulling his own weight easily. Its just unfortunate that his abilities are too narrow and not playing well together. Especially subclass features.
Back to the fighter:

A melee fighter only needs strength. Thats it. A bit con. Maybe a bit wis and some dex helps. But you can always play a competent fighter. And on games with low numbers of rests you can play an eldritch knight. Even with low int.

 

[DaviMMS]

I may be missing it but I don't see where you added in precision. With no short rests precision adds somewhere between 5% and 10% chance to hit.

I did took it into acount. Edited it to be more clear.

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[Pauln6]

First off a adventuring day that has 6 combats of 4 rounds each with 2 short rests is 2 combats, short rest, 2 combats, short rest, 2 combats is an assumption that greatly favors a fighter. I have rarely seen that and its a perfect day for a fighter who relies on short rests, he gets to use AS in half his combats and keeps recharging his BM dice. The Paladins burst is dependent on LR but the Paladins other abilities keep going. The Rangers abilities are best in extended combats. In all the games I have played and DMed its 3-5 combats of 3-6 rounds each, then SR and the 3-5 more then day is over.

Second though, once again, its all the fighter will ever get, a damage benefit that is measured in single digit numbers over optimized conditions. He gets nothing else. That's the point.

These mathematical exercises are largely meaningless. This is why the designers do actual playtests. Extra damage is meaningless if the monster has 1hp left. People are often dazzled by the total numbers on the dice but the wow factor is meaningless most of the time. Do some playtests counting only the damage that matters. Fighters perform extremely well.

I do think there should be superior manoeuvres though that scale with level.

 

[Ancalagon]

Why exactly should the ranger be weaker than the fighter?

Because the ranger has far more utility than the fighter? Rangers are very strong in the exploration pillar.