The future of Juxtaposition - PreVote Discussion

[WizO_Adele]

Historically speaking, marketplaces were equal if not more popular meeting places than taverns. Of course, we can tweak the marketplace setting so it has a food court or other area to the side if that's what people want. That will all be part of a future discussion and vote. And the second room could always be an inn, or a dungeon, or a guild, or whatever everyone thinks will help.

I'm not doing anything Krystal; the vote will all be in the hands of the patrons. I also never said anything about enforcing things in character. I wouldn't use in character means to ask a cyborg or modern character to leave. That is already a Code of Conduct issue of room disruption. I would ask them nicely out of character. Depending on the character type involved, that would follow over into a setting enforced area - though by what we are going to propose it would not necessarily be a disciplinary action just as Juxta's enforcements were not. As for Drow not being welcome in a tavern in Greyhawk, I have not said that. However, it is a large piece of the setting and if that was voted on to be enforced then I think it would be a reasonable in character explanation in itself. I don't find it to a be a stretch of the imagination for someone of a very hated race to be asked to leave and denied service.

These proposals have very little to do with my happiness. Greyhawk was chosen as the room to be more setting enforced because the setting is already well in line with that idea. Leaving CRT in Greyhawk makes sense because removing Juxta requires one setting to be built from scratch, and CRT has already been relocated enough. I'd rather the other changes I had to make were modifications and not complete rebuilding. That's a rather large undertaking for just one setting, let alone two. And if we make the new setting strict then Greyhawk being the setting for CRT would be redundant. Greyhawk is by it's very nature a low magic, low fantasy setting with character restrictions. CRT, by it's very nature as a tavern is also restrictive in character types and activities.

I realize I'm not going to please everyone, but I do hope to please the majority. I feel that having two settings of two varities will offer the greatest odds of that. Outside of that, it's up to the votes. Almost everything is being left to a vote.

Now back to the Sigil option, I'm still not entirely convinced guys. Sigil by it's nature is very reminiscent of Juxta to me. I doubt the Lady of Pain would be fond of gods walking around. The religious restrictions might be a pain in the arse. Then there's the chant, and other things people have addressed. The setting already has a lot of restrictions built in, and in my opinion it's no fun to utilize a set setting without playing within it's boundaries. I'd hate to open a new setting just to have it's setting ignored as Juxta's was.

 

[Ssussunriyh]

Why not set the marketplace in the City of Union? (See the Epic Level Handbook, pages 248-270.)

 

[Davon]

Okay, seems I have (for ALL this time) slightly misunderstood what the 'official' line was on the terms of 'the more - or less strictly enforced' setting room. It seems to me that there are two seperate scales for this, rather like there are two alignment tracks...Good -Evil and Law - Chaos. For Strictness there is True To Setting - Freedom to be Odd as one scale, and IC Enforcement - Lack of IC Authority. The Tavern is True to Setting, but without IC enforcement of behaviour...as has been said by the lady herself..Siani doesn't care if you murder each other, as long as you don't make a mess or bust the place up. Where as Juxta had high levels of IC enforcement..The Marshals, but fiarly lowish setting compliance (I often used to see patrons bend the supposed natural laws of Juxta badly). Now if we want to keep the same balance, namely that between the two settings all four positions are covered...and IF the Tavern is staying exactly as it is...High Setting enforcement, low IC authority...then the replacement for Juxta needs High IC authority and Low(ish..having it too low would not be good, but a 'little' more bendable) Setting regulation....then this has a noticable impact on the best setting for us to pick.

Sigil has some restrictions in setting terms I agree...No gods, Priests better not make too much noise....But then again...honestly, how many people play/want to play...are capable of playing a God well....(if you are already saying 'Me, me, me!' then you don't count!). For IC enforcement there are the Harmonium and the Mercykillers...so while the 'authority' figures are a little less hmmm clean smelling...they are there, for better or worse. (The Lady of Pain also gives the Wizo's a nice enegmatic way of IC solving the odd problem in a 'we don't have to explain ourselves...you want to argue with her...that's your funeral).

Faerun. Depending on where the final setting is, authority IC figures are easy...Purple Dragons, Raven's Bluff Knights of the Falcon, The Faceless Lords of Waterdeep...and so on. As for Setting 'rule and restrictions' there are VERY few...the only problem would be how acceptable the more odd characters are. Sigil is a MUCH more accepting place....even an upwardly mobile Cormyn is going to be VERY leery about a drow or half drow, and that is putting a considerably positive view on it....anything more odd is going to get a hostile response at best....i.e. Demonic persons, half dragons, talking pink and green spotted rabbits...and on the other hand a Celestial is going to be treated with total awe. The people of Ford Keep are used to it by now. The 'soft' solution to this is to fudge and assume wierd is the norm in the new Faerun setting as much as it is in Ford Keep. Given that, Faerun presents as good an option of fulfilling the two requirments.

Both of these also are high magic to the CRT's low magic, are not so 'gritty real' as CRT (though Sigil can and imhe has been played either way).

A comment again on FR location, it needs to be 'generic' fantasy...in as much as the regions that Than mention I agree won't work, likewise the Underdark or anywhere TOO 'nice' eg Silverymoon...any such place is going to restrict the sort of acceptable people or colour the setting from too 'abnormal' a view for 'generic' fantasy characters to fit in.....a few Al-Quadim set characters visiting elsewhere is one thing, but an Al-Quadim set room where 95% of the active people are NOT from the setting makes no sense.

Making a second Greyhawk room I think frankly won't see enough use and is a waste of an opening. It would encourage Greyhawk based characters more however, but making fantasy ISRP a single setting would be very narrow.

Homebrew is possible, and of course can be customized to fit the role we need....BUT as it would be new to everyone....the ignorence level of the setting would be very high and would last a while ebfore people get settled in. Also a personal comment on any setting that is new to me, I find VERY uncomfortable, because making a local character ends you up playing someone that knows an awful lot more than you do about almost everything....it's hard to roleplay when you are ignorent but your character is 'ment' to have intimate knowledge of his surroundings.

Ramble, ramble..oh...I ran out of breath...*gasp* (Can we have somewhere that sells poppy seed tea...it would help explain that stoned look on Than's face half the time ;-))

 

[Davon]

Duh, brain fade...I jsut thought of one suggestion I should make...not that it will go anywhere, but I wouldn't feel right if I didn't now I remembered it.

Mystra

Please note that I have NO material at all from it on hand right now.

The Empire of Thyatis, The Republic of Darokin, The Principalities of Galantri and all thosae other OLD haunts.

Yes, by now either your laughing your side off or are going Duh..wha??

But still, there you go, I mentioned it...IF anyone feels like making an appeal for it, go ahead, the floor is yours...(the reason I am not doing so is twofold, 1) it isn't worth making a full plug for unless at least one other person supports it 2) I am lazy

While I am here, one slight extra plug for the more mainstream arguments....I have always considered that the pantheon of a settig is it's keystone...get a good pantheon and the setting is on the right tracks. Faerun has the best, bar none, fantasy pantheon I have run into. The Planes steal every other setting's gods, so they are also great, heh. The downside is that though I love Ravenloft and Mystra, one is all but pantheon less and the other's never appealed to me at all for some reason. Anyway, there is another little bit of input (also having a combined Greyhawk setting means we only get the one pantheon)

*hair crisps up* I don't think Ao likes me!

 

[Dragona Nightsky]

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Let the new setting be the strict one. It won't have had the history this one has had of being less strict, and it'd make more sense for a new setting to be strict than all of a sudden the crt is strict (even if it were introduced slowly).

You're going to either axe or displace a good majority of people's characters, and for what, your happiness and the happiness of those who want it more strict? Would they not be just as happy to have a tavern setting that is more strict?

I honestly don't think Adele is going to -try- and displace characters, but I have to admit personally it would be nice to go into the tavern and it seem a little more like a tavern than a marketplace. Honestly, I have no grudge or hatred or anything like that against people who play unattended small animals or young children, I've played things of that nature before myself. But in a tavern? Where they serve food (which you wouldn't want wild animals near) and alcohol (which you wouldn't want young children near)? Granted, the CRT is prone to things that a normal tavern in Greyhawk wouldn't be prone to, but why couldn't that change? There are plenty of IC reasons for the Siani, being owner of the place, to place stricter guidelines in place; the local authorities (which perhaps have been keeping an eye on this odd tavern and have finally decided enough is enough), Siani's whim (perhaps one too many demons has destroyed tavern furniture or bled on her floor...she can be picky about that ), I mean the list could go on and on, so it's not unbelievable.

But then, that's really another topic as I understand it. For the moment:

Go Sigil or FR!
-Draggy

 

[Krystal]

Okay, the children I'll give. But then, you have to keep in mind that in these times, children would be someone under 10, at least I think so. What about young boys/girls who help carry baggage, etc. Yes, that's a setting thing more than a character thing, but still.

And what about the town? The youth of a town are going to try to go into places they shouldn't. Granted, I'm using a current-day example, but: In my hometown, it was not uncommon to see middle-highschoolers and the like at the local bar playing pool, etc. Did the parents necessarily want them there? Some, probably not. Did that stop them? No. It's the way of youth. Fantasy settings, while realistic would I think, be similar. And really, does it make any more sense for kids to be running around in a market place? They'd be seen by businessmen/women as disruptive to business (and also a threat to their items.. theft and such). Kids would be just as likely if not more to be harmed in a market place than a bar. It's easier to run off with a kid / harm someone in a large, open area then a bar with staff and other adventuring type patrons about, who might stand up and try to bust yer head in for going after a kid... whether or not they think the kid belongs there.

Also, since taverns in fantasy settings tend to adventurers, I'd think they'd be more likely to see animals, as many have companions. Of course, it would depend on the companion and, I suspect, the person with such companion. (I think a well-known / respected wizard would have no problems with most companions as compared to just some passing through ranger with the same kind of companion).

I can see fine tuning such things... but major tunings? No.

 

[Tharivious_Meliamne]

There is more to the tavern than it just being a tavern. It is loved because the history and the personalities that show themselves daily! The golem, the staff, the owner... the personalities are what make it so loved, at least for me, and I don't see those of us who like it for those reasons to be content to just move and start over somewhere else.

This is true, and it all boils down to atmosphere. The tavern has a very warm and welcoming atmosphere to it between the nature of what it is, and the result that it has evolved into over time. The Emporium's atmosphere has never held the same draw to me, likely because my characters would more likely go elsewhere to acquire items that they may need to visit a marketplace for. A tavern can be rationalized more easily, planar travellers like to stop at familiar places, and a tavern by nature serves as a more likely place to become familiar (by modern thinking, and therefor by the thinking process of the players).

Sigil has some restrictions in setting terms I agree...No gods, Priests better not make too much noise....But then again...honestly, how many people play/want to play...are capable of playing a God well....(if you are already saying 'Me, me, me!' then you don't count!). For IC enforcement there are the Harmonium and the Mercykillers...so while the 'authority' figures are a little less hmmm clean smelling...they are there, for better or worse. (The Lady of Pain also gives the Wizo's a nice enegmatic way of IC solving the odd problem in a 'we don't have to explain ourselves...you want to argue with her...that's your funeral).

Precisely my thoughts on the restrictions.
One potential problem with utilizing the Hardheads as WizO-roles is that, as Adele mentioned earlier, WotC doesn't want the WizO characters to be law enforcement. That doesn't mean that they can't call them in as owners of the establishment used of course... And as for Her Serenity, that is absolutely true, both as a rational explanation for the ejection of characters that need to be booted/banned, and as a reasonable replacement for the bootezu (Guess the Lady decided a portal was needed there...).

Mystra

Perhaps you mean Mystara? I'm not very familiar with the setting, it was a bit before my time and the material was never handy for me to access. The only material I have seen details the city of Cynidicea and appeared in a Dragon magazine issue, so I can't say much about it.

Also, since taverns in fantasy settings tend to adventurers, I'd think they'd be more likely to see animals, as many have companions. Of course, it would depend on the companion and, I suspect, the person with such companion. (I think a well-known / respected wizard would have no problems with most companions as compared to just some passing through ranger with the same kind of companion).

This is a good point, but it's also a different matter than the unattended animals that Pounamu sweeps out the door. Attended companions are one thing, but wandering sheep with no visible signs of/known common knowledge of an owner would still likely be sent elsewhere in any sort of establishment, at the least sent out back to be given scraps if they looked like strays.

 

[Krystal]

I agree on the animals, a good point. And if such animal happens to be a shapechanged druid or some sort... they get what they deserve for not remembering they're among humanity again.

*grins*

 

[Jardel_Karabella]

And what about the town? The youth of a town are going to try to go into places they shouldn't. Granted, I'm using a current-day example, but: In my hometown, it was not uncommon to see middle-highschoolers and the like at the local bar playing pool, etc. Did the parents necessarily want them there? Some, probably not. Did that stop them? No. It's the way of youth. Fantasy settings, while realistic would I think, be similar.

Indeed, however the is a world of difference between wanting to go places you're not supposed to be and actually going to them. Given that the tavern has the advantage of being watched twenty-four hours a day by a barman with a heart of stone (literally) it seems pretty reasonable to me that if you appear to be too young, you're not getting in.

And really, does it make any more sense for kids to be running around in a market place? They'd be seen by businessmen/women as disruptive to business (and also a threat to their items.. theft and such).

I have yet to see an open market, supermarket or mall that has strict rules against bringing children in or letting them wander in themselves. I have however seen many bars of various sorts where they're not welcome. The same applies to a fantasy setting.

Remember, regardless of how fond our mages, fighters, assassins, etc are of the tavern it is essentially a meeting place for mercenaries, merchants, magic wielders and being who are unwelcome elsewhere (and in the minds of common people there's a good reason for that). Many of the occupants are doubtlessly considered necessary evils by the society about them, others less than that.

While not a den of inquity its not a wholesome place to leave your impressionable children either. Children would be very out of place and it would not be unreasonable to say that the rule of the house is no children can come in, that way no parents can complain or start protesting outside with pitchforks and torches.

Kids would be just as likely if not more to be harmed in a market place than a bar. It's easier to run off with a kid / harm someone in a large, open area then a bar with staff and other adventuring type patrons about, who might stand up and try to bust yer head in for going after a kid... whether or not they think the kid belongs there.

Running off with said kid is unlikely for the simple reasons that children are rather impractical to carry, marketplaces have guards and when you're caught there will be an abudance of witnesses willing to finger you and have you sent to the hangman's noose. Children are safer in the market because it is large, open and in plain sight.

A tavern however has booths and private rooms to lure people into if you want to corrupt them or hurt them. Remember in the fantasy genre you don't have to just worry about your child being abducted, there's a very real fear for their souls or that they may be seduced into joining some evil cult... or worse yet... becoming an adventurer.

That and as well as providing the protection of a watchful community a marketplace offers boundless opportunities for children that parents would encourage. They can see all the different crafts, ask questions in the goal of becoming an apprentice one day. They can run messages, do small deliveries for merchants and other small menial tasks in exchange for goods or coins. They can watch merchants and learn the fine art of haggling. They do a dozen things which are not only safe but helpful to their futures.

 

[Davon]

I may have missed an 'a' yes Thar ol buddy ol pal...like I said, I don't have any of the material for that setting to hand...probably in a box somewhere..also why I didn't mention the Grand Dutchy of Karemikos...cos I am sure that is not the right spelling! Oppss, too late!

As for the Harmonium, while in the setting they are accepted as the law enforcers...they are not the executive arm of te authorities...as there are no 'authorities' in that way, and nobody asked the Harmonioum to do what they do, they just DO it...de facto. So in that view, they are not technically the 'law'...hmm, twisted technicality, no? Hehe. But it is quite possible for patrons to play Harmonium (and Mercykillers) and 'enforce' the law 'as they see it' with some of the Wizo's taking rols of senior members of said factions perhaps...making them more administrators of their factions, not enforcers...just a possible way of integrating 'control' between everyone.

On the other hand regardles of the setting, that the new 'directive is that the Wizo's should NOT be the 'law' means that the appropriate organisation (Harmonium, Purple Dragons, WatchWizards etc) will not be removed from the patrons (like the Marshals were) and thus are open to abuse by anyone who wants to 'be one'. The only thing I can hope is that this becomes self regulating...in other words that those who are capable of RPing such characters properly, and most importantly, responsibly, will be accepted, and anyone else will get tired of being joked at.

I have actually seen slightly....(slightly note) fewer 'animals' and kiddies around the tavern...but yes, any parent that bings kiddies there regularly needs to be reported to the Depatment of Family Affairs as needing retraining (as a village idiot), note how seldom...once n a blue moon, Dav brings his there...basically just often enough to stop people thinking they have died it's been so long since they were seen in public!

*dashes off as Caleb starts sticking pins into a wax model of his father*...Oww..oww...not, don't poke THERE! YEOWW!