The future of Juxtaposition - PreVote Discussion

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WizO_Adele

Guest
If the vote were to result in a homebrew selection effort to create it would be joint between staff and patrons. It would be very similar to how TMP was done, though I would we'd see more volunteers. I'd probably compile a list of what necessary setting information was needed and post it, and then everyone could take a piece and submit a write up and then we'd mesh them together. Maybe do a series of polls.

Speaking of which, I'll have some polls open tonight regarding the UISRP settings overall. I'm holding off on opening the Juxta specific poll until this discussion wraps up all the way...

So please spread the word to everyone that it's very important they check the boards and participate.
 

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Krystal

First Post
WizO_Adele said:
I will be presenting another proposal this weekend, which involves moving Greyhawk to a setting enforced room. It does tie into this vote though, as they are connected in a way. I will do my best to overlap them in such a way that you'll get a chance to read the new proposal before we start voting on the Juxta proposal... so you can consider how they will affect each other depending on how each vote goes.


Dontella> If that's the case, then what's the meaning of that? I do believe CRT is Greyhawk, yes? Hence my post.
 

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WizO_Adele

Guest
Yes, but moving CRT out of Greyhawk was not on the agenda. It was more about enforcing the setting it is in and turning it into a more structured area.

My original plans, years ago and now, were to have two settings; one that was high magic, high variety and allowed a wide spectrum of both character behaviors but also races, magic, and classes while a more structured setting that promotes a more realistic feel with lower magic and power levels, more realistic behavior and consequences and a more setting consistent variety of character classes, races and powers.

I wanted to appeal to both groups. I see one group of thought that enjoys playing the outcast friendly drow, the talking cat, the high powered priestess, the modernized dwarf, the exiled god, the rowdy brawler - the storylines with unusual results and affects. I see another group that prefers that combat remain outside, that actions have realistic consequences and characters stay true to the setting they are from.

Can this be accomplished with just one setting? I personally don't feel that it can. While we could merge the settings into one 'world' and place a restrictive playing area on one end and a more liberal playing end on the other, I don't feel it would meet all of our needs. Having two completely separate worlds to choose from allows us to select one that is naturally high magic and another that is naturally low magic. One that is naturally high fantasy and what that is more low fantasy. It also allows us to custom taylor the setting for the group it is appealing too, as well as offer more variety in where we can play. More settings means more opportunities, more creativity, more choices.

In my logic, since Juxta is the setting that is absolutely going to be removed for the reasons I've already outlined, it makes sense to discuss what to replace it with. There is no need to replace Greyhawk unless everyone feels strongly that it *ALSO* needs to go. Instead, I was hoping to use it as our more structured environment because by it's very nature Greyhawk is low magic and lower fantasy, with built in character restructions, especially when compared to a setting like Forgotten Realms, or one that could be homebrewed with a wider variety of tolerances.
 

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JudeSedai

Guest
WizO_Adele said:
I wanted to appeal to both groups. I see one group of thought that enjoys playing the outcast friendly drow, the talking cat, the high powered priestess, the modernized dwarf, the exiled god, the rowdy brawler - the storylines with unusual results and affects. I see another group that prefers that combat remain outside, that actions have realistic consequences and characters stay true to the setting they are from.

Can this be accomplished with just one setting? I personally don't feel that it can. While we could merge the settings into one 'world' and place a restrictive playing area on one end and a more liberal playing end on the other, I don't feel it would meet all of our needs. Having two completely separate worlds to choose from allows us to select one that is naturally high magic and another that is naturally low magic. One that is naturally high fantasy and what that is more low fantasy. It also allows us to custom taylor the setting for the group it is appealing too, as well as offer more variety in where we can play. More settings means more opportunities, more creativity, more choices.


So, wait a second, would that mean that the folks who play those not-so-standard characters (ie, those who don't really fit into the way Greyhawk is set up) wouldn't be welcome in CRT anymore? To be honest, that hardly seems fair. To take away the tavern from folks just because their characters are different...if that's not what it is, I'm sorry, it's just that's what it sounds like.

So the people who play "odd" characters would still have the Emporium. Okay, fine. But at the same time, the Emporium isn't a tavern, it's a marketplace, which makes it a markedly different environment. I don't think it's really fair to "punish" players who want to play a character that's less than standard fare for the Greyhawk setting by making the tavern more strict.

Sorry if this didn't make any sense, but that's what was bouncing around in my head after I read this.
 

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WizO_Adele

Guest
Jude> That's getting rather ahead of the discussion. The Greyhawk proposal will outline things further and almost every restriction will be voted on separately. So it really depends on what the majority feels stays true to the setting, though we will present options based on common interpretations of Greyhawk law and setting.

As for the marketplace, that does not have to be the only room attached to the new setting. Yes, one will be a marketplace. The second room is going to be up for discussion and vote.

There are already character types that are not welcome in CRT. Cyborgs, 50 ft tall giants (who physically can't fit in) and modern day characters. I don't see it as an issue of fairness, but one of realism. There are certain types being played in there now that do not belong there, and disrupt the room with their presence. For those wishing a more realistic experience it is reasonable.
 


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Rhane Arturant

Guest
I think the CRT should become more setting enforced, personally. I mean really, is it natural to find elves among drow, among celestials and fiends with dwarves in ONE tavern on GREYHAWK? It just doesn't make sense.

On the other hand, I suspect that the CRT is so popular because it's a tavern setting. The actual setting, I find is easier to play in because it's more relaxed, people actually hang out in bars and clubs in real life and thus have more of a feel for it. So I don't doubt that a tavern-like setting somewhere like Sigil would be just as popular, simply because it's a tavern. I'm a little skeptical as to whether the marketplace will be played in reguardless of where it's moved - afterall, there was little interaction with the actual market aspect.

But yes, i've strayed from my point. My vote is for a more enforced CRT setting, as it'd fit.. and then a less strict room. Which is why I still stand by Sigil simply because the amount of character diversity would actually fit with the types of characters we get onsite. Afterall, I'm not sure half-devils and minotaurs and such would be welcome in Silverymoon for example. ;)
 

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Tharivious_Meliamne

Guest
Yet another long-winded post from me...

On the other hand, I suspect that the CRT is so popular because it's a tavern setting. The actual setting, I find is easier to play in because it's more relaxed, people actually hang out in bars and clubs in real life and thus have more of a feel for it. So I don't doubt that a tavern-like setting somewhere like Sigil would be just as popular, simply because it's a tavern. I'm a little skeptical as to whether the marketplace will be played in reguardless of where it's moved - afterall, there was little interaction with the actual market aspect.
Quoted for emphasis. ;)

I think that this is dead-on accurate. It's a lot easier from a logical standpoint to explain characters meeting in a tavern or restaurant than it is in at what is essentially an open-air mall in modern terms. Many characters are unlikely to take leisurely breaks after acquiring things that they need, whereas at a tavern or restaurant based room would have that logical basis - everyone (aside from undead) needs to eat and drink sometime, and by default, most prefer to do so at a comfortable and relaxed pace. Making the redesigned Emporium into a more defined restaurant within a marketplace, however, may be a better route to go than the current open air environment with Feegee's stall.
Either way, I stand by my earlier post about the merits of using Sigil. Sites like The Mimir and Planewalker (which creates Planescape 3E Official material) provide plenty of online source material to draw from detailing the setting and culture of the City of Doors, and it would truly allow us to maintain the roleplaying potential that Juxta has provided. None of the other settings permit homebrew-world characters to visit as easily as Sigil would, and that in and of itself should be a strong selling point.

Might as well run down my opinions on the other setting candidates while I'm thinking of it since I am a setting student of sorts, and a tired and rambly one at that. :p
Forgotten Realms: Personally, I find Faerûn's (which, let's face it, is the Forgotten Realms region most likely to be used considering that the others are largely if not entirely out of print) breed of high-fantasy to be a push in the wrong direction - mages are too prominent there for my tastes, making warriors (aside from a certain overly angsty drow-cliche-generator that is best left unnamed) feel somewhat obsolete. There's a devoted fan-base, but there's also a devoted anti-fan-base - not everyone likes the setting, and those that don't tend to be very much opposed to the setting's style (myself included in that group). I think Faerûn is responsible for much of the decline in certain character archetypes in many ways, simply because it is so over-exposed and over-prominent.
The other realms in the Realms have the distinct problem of cultural sensitivity, namely the already eliminated Al-Qadim's Psuedo-Arabic and Kara-Tur's Psuedo-Asian premises, for example, both of which run into potential stereotyping and political-correctness issues that could become problematic. As for Maztica, the Psuedo-Mayan setting module, that's well and good, but exploration of Maztica is limited even among natives of Toril, so how would we rationalize extra-planar travellers visiting?
However, the one type of location that I would actually like to see working in Abier-Toril would be an Underdark room where some of the morally-deficient characters that we have now would actually be welcomed without looking like outcasts. A room where races that are known to be sinister could congregate and have a valid reason for not being persecuted on sight would be a bit of a draw I think. I'm sure that this would create its own issues, and that many players would be loathe to see a room made to allow proper evil characters to thrive, but I personally think that it could work.
Regardless of which region is used, if Abier-Toril is selected, I know that 90% of my characters would never go there due to their own opinions (including the rare character of mine born on Toril, of which there are... two :p ).

Eberron: Great setting concept, possibly the only flagship setting Wizards of the Coast still supports that I have any amount of appreciation for. While low-level oriented, Eberron is anything but low-powered - one look at the Artificer class and what can be done with it should prove that in and of itself. I think the main issue with Eberron as a room would be the mage-technology and methods that magic are used in the setting, and how that would interact with the Greyhawk room. Fine setting, but I don't think that the sort of free-reign character creation that tends to occur in the ISRP could reasonably be brought here, and as has been mentioned, the devoted fan-base likely isn't there yet.

Homebrew: If Planescape isn't chosen, then this would have to be my second choice. I'm currently working on two self-created settings of my own (Veghinix, which is semi-standard high fantasy, and Risen Myths, which is futuristic and classicist blended together - both of which are in construction on my message boards linked in my sig) as it is, and have some experience in setting design. I'd be happy to help build up the core of the new project in any way possible to provide the type of location that could allow as much diversity in character population as possible. Anything needed, be it game-material related, artwork, or flavor text, I would be happy to volunteer some of my time to make the setting work. I think that aside from Sigil, this is the only setting option that would permit the same breadth of creativity that is currently allowed by Juxta.
 

J

JudeSedai

Guest
You guys are probably right about the tavern thing, but I know that, dependent on the setting, I may end up spending more time in the Emporium anyway. I don't think it's terribly farfetched that folks would spend time in a marketplace, whether they're shopping or not. I would just hope for a more extensive menu from the golem if that becomes the case ;) As long as the marketplace still has an open seating area, I think we'd be okay.

A map would definately be helpful as well. That's part of the difficulty of playing in the Emporium right now -- I can't seem to find a map these days to save my life (I used to have one bookmarked, but it seems to have disappeared).
 

Krystal

First Post
While the tavern setting has some to do with it, I don't think that's all of it. And honestly, Adele, I think you're being to strict with your definition of room disruption. I'd really wish you'd relax it a little.

There is more to the tavern than it just being a tavern. It is loved because the history and the personalities that show themselves daily! The golem, the staff, the owner... the personalities are what make it so loved, at least for me, and I don't see those of us who like it for those reasons to be content to just move and start over somewhere else.

You say that races that don't make sense, and odd ball characters are room disruption. I say that forcing our characters IC to suddenly be shoved out for whatever reason (and seriously, I expect a WELL EXPLAINED IC REASON for it all....) is going to be more disruptive than what it is now!

What's that, you say? Drow are suddenly no longer alowed inside the tavern, and if they enter, if they refuse to leave, they must be physically removed? What about all the other character types?

Now the 50' things, yes... but then again, does the webpage not say that there is a window for serving those too large to physically enter the tavern? Honestly, I've not seen much of that lately. The drow? Ok, a bit odd, but their are oddballs to every race! The D20 system states that itself! A lawfull good rogue? SURE! It's unusual, but it's possible.

I've said it once, and I'll say it again. Let the new setting be the strict one. It won't have had the history this one has had of being less strict, and it'd make more sense for a new setting to be strict than all of a sudden the crt is strict (even if it were introduced slowly).

You're going to either axe or displace a good majority of people's characters, and for what, your happiness and the happiness of those who want it more strict? Would they not be just as happy to have a tavern setting that is more strict?
 

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