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The Goblin - Pathfinder 2's Newest Ancestry!

Today's Pathfinder 2nd Edition update is all about the Goblin! Paizo introduces the first (and the newest) of the game's Ancestries. As always, this information will be added to the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Compiled Info Page!

Today's Pathfinder 2nd Edition update is all about the Goblin! Paizo introduces the first (and the newest) of the game's Ancestries. As always, this information will be added to the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Compiled Info Page!



20180402-Goblin_360.jpeg



  • Goblins! Last night Paizo revealed the first of the Ancestries - the Goblin!
    • Boosts to Dexterity and Charisma plus one other ability score of your choice
    • Flaw to Wisdom
    • 6 hit points
    • Speed 25'
    • Common and Goblin starting language
    • Darvision (see in the dark as though it were daylight)
    • Sample Ancestry feats --
      • Burn It -- bonus damage on fire spells or alchemical items, and increases persistent fire damage by 1 points.
      • Junk Tinkerer -- craft ordinary, poor quality items out of junk.
      • Razor Teeth -- 1d6 piercing damage.
      • Very Sneaky -- move additional 5' when taking the sneak action (normally half speed) and possibly render target flat-footed.
  • Jason Bulmahn on including Goblins -- "Concerning goblins and how they fit in Golarion: Times change and so do people's opinions. Goblins as PCs have been a part of our world since the first "We Be Goblins" adventure. Many of the comments here echo those from back during the launch of 3.0 when Half-Orcs returned to the game as a player choice. There was a lot of conflict at first, but the tone of them shifted over time. We always knew this would be a bit controversial and that there were some who would loudly proclaim "not at my table" and I get that. It's your table and your game after all. We are moving forward, trying to allow players to explore these characters, their culture, and their viewpoint. We are hoping to give you plenty of reasons, both mechanically and story-driven, to allow goblins in your game."
  • Mark Seifter on that flexible ability boost -- "It's one of ways you get to really customize your ancestry to fit your character concept, melding the story and life of your character to the mechanics. Plus you can play the class you want without worrying about as much of an uphill battle with ability scores if you don't match the bonuses from the race with the class you had it mind. Incidentally, it provides a really nice design space to much more easily create and handle subraces that have different ability modifiers... ;)"
  • Mark Seifter confirms that repairing an item is a untrained use but building is trained only.
  • Seifter on failed saves vs. dominate -- "the wording is subtly different now. Anyway, because it implies what you've said here, I wouldn't say "if you critically fail your save against dominate, you are completely under the spellcaster's control". There is still some possibility to resist a particularly abhorrent new order on a critical failure, but you're going to have to fulfill that first command no matter what."
  • Community News --
 

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Aldarc

Legend
Those things have nothing to do with what the Wisdom score actually mechanically does in the game.
Apart from how "common sense" and "willpower" are described as part of Wisdom and its use in Will saves, Sense Motive, Survival, and Perception or its use to represent the sagacity of monks, clerics, and druids and the survival awareness of rangers. Or that a character with 0 Wisdom is incapable of rational thought, with a mechanical link between Wisdom and sanity. Yeah. I'm just wrong. Goblins are wise. That's what I think when reading this.
6. They’re a Little Crazy: The fact that goblins think of ovens as good hiding places reveals much about their inability to think plans through to their most likely outcome. That, and the fact that they tend to be easily distracted, particularly by shiny things and small animals that might make good eating limit their ability to execute even well thought out plans.
I apologize. You are clearly correct in insisting that goblins receiving a +2 Wisdom makes the most mechanical sense with how they are established in Golarion.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Apart from how "common sense" and "willpower" are described as part of Wisdom
While you and I are never going to on agree on whether or not “common sense” is an appropriate narrative description for what Wisdom is in D&D and Pathfinder, I think we can at least agree that there is no mechanical enforcement of characters with low Willpower needing to use furnaces as hiding places or light things on fire. Even in games where the GM insists on players doing whatever he thinks “roleplaying your ability scores” means, I don’t imagine players with low Wisdom characters would likely be forced into choosing a furnace as a hiding place or setting things on fire indescriminantly, nor high Willpower characters forbidden to do so.

and its use in Will saves, Sense Motive, Survival, and Perception or its use to represent the sagacity of monks, clerics, and druids and the survival awareness of rangers. Or that a character with 0 Wisdom is incapable of rational thought, with a mechanical link between Wisdom and sanity.
Again, none of these things seem to directly correlate to using furnaces as hiding places or indiscriminately lightingbthongs on fire.

Yeah. I'm just wrong. Goblins are wise. That's what I think when reading this.
Goblins are absolutely not wise by the standard meaning of the English word. Mechanically speaking, however, I think the things that the Wisdom Ability actually does in the game are more appropriate for Goblins to be good at than the things Intelligence or especially Chaisma do.

I apologize. You are clearly correct in insisting that goblins receiving a +2 Wisdom makes the most mechanical sense with how they are established in Golarion.
Cool, thanks.
 

Arakasius

First Post
Charisma however works far better with the classes goblins are likely to be. Things like bards and sorcerers. I could see intelligence being their mental boost, but it doesn’t make sense for wisdom to be the goblin boost.

Wisdom means more perception, strength against magical spells on you and sensing others motives as well as clerics/inquisitors/Druids. (The two main wis skills and their saves and the main wisdom classes) Also add in the heal skill.

Charisma means affinity with magical devices, diplomacy, Bluff, disguise, intimidate and the bard/Sorcerer/oracle classes.

So I’d have to agree with Aldarc here. Diplomacy I agree is odd for goblins. But magical devices, Bluff, disguise, intimidate and the classes that use charisma are far more in line with what goblins are in Golarion than the wisdom skills. If you’re saying that it makes sense for goblins to be enhanced in perceptiveness and withstanding magical assaults on themselves then you have to put some argument forward that like dwarves they have those innate skills more than the average race. I’m pretty sure the Golarion lore on goblins doesn’t show that to be true at all.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
Charisma however works far better with the classes goblins are likely to be. Things like bards and sorcerers. I could see intelligence being their mental boost, but it doesn’t make sense for wisdom to be the goblin boost.

Wisdom means more perception, strength against magical spells on you and sensing others motives as well as clerics/inquisitors/Druids. (The two main wis skills and their saves and the main wisdom classes) Also add in the heal skill.

Charisma means affinity with magical devices, diplomacy, Bluff, disguise, intimidate and the bard/Sorcerer/oracle classes.

So I’d have to agree with Aldarc here. Diplomacy I agree is odd for goblins. But magical devices, Bluff, disguise, intimidate and the classes that use charisma are far more in line with what goblins are in Golarion than the wisdom skills. If you’re saying that it makes sense for goblins to be enhanced in perceptiveness and withstanding magical assaults on themselves then you have to put some argument forward that like dwarves they have those innate skills more than the average race. I’m pretty sure the Golarion lore on goblins doesn’t show that to be true at all.

Ahh, see now here’s an argument that’s speaking my language! Thank you.

So, regarding which classes want which abilities for their spellcasting, in the cow book, we’ve got:
Intelligence: Wizards
Wisdom: Clerics, Druids, Rangers
Charisma: Bards, Paladins, Sorcerers

Now, to me, Paladin and Bard don’t strike me as good fits for a goblin. You could maybe justify bard, because goblins like to sing, but I don’t picture them singing well, certainly not well enough to genuinely inspire their allies and frighten their enemies. Sorcerers work alright, they are generally pretty good blaster casters and that’s fitting enough. Still, doesn’t strike me as especially appropriate, just kind of... fine.

Cleric isn’t a great fit for goblins either, but in my opinion ranger and Druid are both great fits, and I can justify a goblin cleric in service to whatever the biggest goblin deity is.

Goblin wizard feels wrong. Very wrong.

If we go by what the different spell casting abilities say about what kind of magician the character is, Intelligence is generally used by casters who learn their magic through dedicated study. Wisdom is generally used by spellcasters who are granted magic by some external force like a god or nature. And Charisma is generally used by spellcasters whose magic is innate. To me, since goblins in Golarion are afraid of writing, Intelligence casting is a non-starter. Since they are not generally presented as having any tendency towards developing inherent magical abilities, though of course the nature of inherent magic is that it’s highly individual, so this one is neutral, leaning towards no for me. But with their strong desire to follow others, Wisdom casting seems perfect. Worship the spooky thing and it gives you power seems to me like the most quintessentially goblin-y expression of magic.

Regarding skills: magical devices? Yes, I can see goblins being good at that. Diplomacy? No way. Bluff? I don’t think so - I see goblins lying often,, but not well. Disguise? Again, I can easily imagine two or three Golarion goblins in a trench coat, or one with clown makeup, but I can’t easily imagine either actually fooling anyone. Intimidate? Yeah, that one I’ll grant makes sense for goblins.

On the other hand, Heal? Sure, goblins fight a lot, makes sense that they’d also learn to patch up each other’s wounds. Perception? Absolutely. Gotta know where the shinies are. Profession? Ehh, not so much, but who actually uses Profession anyway. Sense motive? I could go either way on that. Survival? Absolutely. They live in caves. Will saves? I don’t really see a strong reason for or against them being good at those.
 

houser2112

Explorer
Worship the spooky thing and it gives you power seems to me like the most quintessentially goblin-y expression of magic.

This screams warlock to me, which is a charisma caster you left off of your list.

Either goblins have to go, or the "one physical boost, one mental boost" idea has to go, otherwise you're going to make goblins good at things they "shouldn't" be good at. Give them charisma to make them good at being sorcerers and warlocks, you also make them good paladins. Give them wisdom to make them good "follower" casters, you also make them good at skills the fluff says they're bad at. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
 

Aldarc

Legend
While you and I are never going to on agree on whether or not “common sense” is an appropriate narrative description for what Wisdom is in D&D and Pathfinder,
It is one descriptive aspect of it. It even says so in the description of Wisdom in the PF1 Core Rulebook:
Wisdom (Wis)

Wisdom describes a character's willpower, common sense, awareness, and intuition. Wisdom is the most important ability for clerics and druids, and it is also important for paladins and rangers. If you want your character to have acute senses, put a high score in Wisdom. Every creature has a Wisdom score. A character with a Wisdom score of 0 is incapable of rational thought and is unconscious.
So there is no need for you to be obtuse about what's written in the core text.

I think we can at least agree that there is no mechanical enforcement of characters with low Willpower needing to use furnaces as hiding places or light things on fire. Even in games where the GM insists on players doing whatever he thinks “roleplaying your ability scores” means, I don’t imagine players with low Wisdom characters would likely be forced into choosing a furnace as a hiding place or setting things on fire indescriminantly, nor high Willpower characters forbidden to do so.
It is not a matter of what players are forced to do, but, rather, what the flavor text of goblins represents in terms of its mapping to D&D mechanics.

Again, none of these things seem to directly correlate to using furnaces as hiding places or indiscriminately lightingbthongs on fire.
In isolation? No. But I would say that the fact that one of the goblin facts explicitly calls them "crazy," inperceptive due to distractiveness and lack of focus, and overall lack of willpower does.

Now, to me, Paladin and Bard don’t strike me as good fits for a goblin. You could maybe justify bard, because goblins like to sing, but I don’t picture them singing well, certainly not well enough to genuinely inspire their allies and frighten their enemies.
The melodies and lyrics of their songs are nevertheless described as being "catchy." Goblins in the Sandpoint raid are being inspired by a small cadre of bardic warchanters.

Cleric isn’t a great fit for goblins either, but in my opinion ranger and Druid are both great fits, and I can justify a goblin cleric in service to whatever the biggest goblin deity is.
The biggest benefit of the goblin ranger was the +4 Dex, inherent size bonuses, and skill bonuses (+4 Ride and Stealth). The druid is an alright fit, and there was one at Thistletop, but I doubt that druidism is a high spiritual priority for goblins, especially if they are followers of Lamashtu, the Demon Goddess of Monsters.

To me, since goblins in Golarion are afraid of writing, Intelligence casting is a non-starter.
Oh, well look at that. The iconic Alchemist in PF2 will be a goblin. And how about Goblin Witches?*

But with their strong desire to follow others, Wisdom casting seems perfect. Worship the spooky thing and it gives you power seems to me like the most quintessentially goblin-y expression of magic.
What kind of half-baked reasoning is this? They are not depicted as having a strong desire to follow, but as being miserable weak-willed wretches cowered into the submissive service of stronger goblinoids, humanoids, and creatures. And if you must go with this reasoning, then does that mean that Goblins should be bad Oracles?*

Regarding skills: magical devices? Yes, I can see goblins being good at that. Diplomacy? No way. Bluff? I don’t think so - I see goblins lying often,, but not well. Disguise? Again, I can easily imagine two or three Golarion goblins in a trench coat, or one with clown makeup, but I can’t easily imagine either actually fooling anyone. Intimidate? Yeah, that one I’ll grant makes sense for goblins.
How about Handle Animal? But what place do you see for the for the iconic Goblin Rogue if many of these iconic rogue skills do not fit the goblin?

On the other hand, Heal? Sure, goblins fight a lot, makes sense that they’d also learn to patch up each other’s wounds.
Goblins in Golarion have been depicted as eating or killing their weak rather than healing them. Nor do I thinking that we have any reasonable grounds to equate "fighting a lot" with "healing a lot."

Perception? Absolutely. Gotta know where the shinies are.
With this sort of reasoning, which ancestry wouldn't have a bonus to Wisdom?

Survival? Absolutely. They live in caves.
So what if they live in caves? Please look at how many other ancestries who "live in caves" don't get Wisdom bonuses: drow, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, orcs, and ratfolk. Where are their wisdom bonuses? The most famous "survivalist" for goblins was a scared-stupid goblin turned starving maniac cannibal who was trapped in a Sandpoint house for several weeks because he was afraid of the dog.

Will saves? I don’t really see a strong reason for or against them being good at those.
If they are primary casters, they will likely have higher Will saves by virtue of their class.

* Though neither Witches nor Oracles will be Core PHB Classes, Paizo has (1) made repeated statements on the intention of including past classes at some point, and (2) indicated that the Witch was a strong contender for Core PHB inclusion and that the Oracle was nearly as popular as the Alchemist. So regardless of the core PHB classes, these classes should probably be kept in mind when it comes to designing ancestries with a more long-term perspective.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
It is one descriptive aspect of it. It even says so in the description of Wisdom in the PF1 Core Rulebook:
So there is no need for you to be obtuse about what's written in the core text.
I really don’t care what the description of Wisdom says it represents. I only care what Wisdom actually does. Actions speak louder than words and all that.

It is not a matter of what players are forced to do, but, rather, what the flavor text of goblins represents in terms of its mapping to D&D mechanics.
And there are no D&D mechanics representing a propensity to hide in furnaces or light things on fire.

In isolation? No. But I would say that the fact that one of the goblin facts explicitly calls them "crazy," inperceptive due to distractiveness and lack of focus, and overall lack of willpower does.
Except there is no mechanical effect of Wisdom that reinforces this “crazy” description. Lack of focus and willpower? Sure, that’s something that actually clashes with Wisdom. I would argue not more so than their lack of social ability and knowledge clash more with Charisma and Intelligence, and I’m working under the assumption that PC races will have one of their fixed bonuses in a mental ability.

The melodies and lyrics of their songs are nevertheless described as being "catchy." Goblins in the Sandpoint raid are being inspired by a small cadre of bardic warchanters.
Ok, so bard might not be a terrible fit for goblins. I still say “magic that is granted by an external source” is a better fit for them than “inherent magic.”

The biggest benefit of the goblin ranger was the +4 Dex, inherent size bonuses, and skill bonuses (+4 Ride and Stealth). The druid is an alright fit, and there was one at Thistletop, but I doubt that druidism is a high spiritual priority for goblins, especially if they are followers of Lamashtu, the Demon Goddess of Monsters.
So what I’m seeing here is that rangers, druids, and clerics (of Lamashtu), are all good fits for goblins.

Oh, well look at that. The iconic Alchemist in PF2 will be a goblin.
And? Alchemists aren’t casters and don’t necessarily need to learn their craft through study. An Alchemist could as easily learn through unguided experimentation, which is very Goblin like, especially if that experimentation is likely to result in explosions.

And how about Goblin Witches?*

* Though neither Witches nor Oracles will be Core PHB Classes, Paizo has (1) made repeated statements on the intention of including past classes at some point, and (2) indicated that the Witch was a strong contender for Core PHB inclusion and that the Oracle was nearly as popular as the Alchemist. So regardless of the core PHB classes, these classes should probably be kept in mind when it comes to designing ancestries with a more long-term perspective.
Personally, I don’t care about them. Maybe I’ll worry about them when we see them actually in PF2. Are they intelligence based casters? Do their gain their magic through intensive study and focus? Then they don’t seem like a good fit for goblins to me.

What kind of half-baked reasoning is this? They are not depicted as having a strong desire to follow, but as being miserable weak-willed wretches cowered into the submissive service of stronger goblinoids, humanoids, and creatures.
So why not extend that submissive service to powerful entities like the gods?

And if you must go with this reasoning, then does that mean that Goblins should be bad Oracles?*
I don’t know, probably? Where do oracles get their magic from?

How about Handle Animal? But what place do you see for the for the iconic Goblin Rogue if many of these iconic rogue skills do not fit the goblin?
Isn’t Handle Animal Charisma based in PF? Yeah, I see them being bad at that. Goblins get +Dex, and Wisdom is at least as important to rogues as Charisma is, if not more so. Goblin rogues don’t tend to be the swave dashing type.

Goblins in Golarion have been depicted as eating or killing their weak rather than healing them. Nor do I thinking that we have any reasonable grounds to equate "fighting a lot" with "healing a lot."
Fair point.

With this sort of reasoning, which ancestry wouldn't have a bonus to Wisdom?
I’m sorry, is every Ancestry portrayed as easily distracted by shiny things? At any rate, the Ancestries that wouldn’t have a bonus to Wisdom would be the ones for whom Charisma or Intelligence are more fitting, since they only get one fixed bonus in a mental ability.

So what if they live in caves? Please look at how many other ancestries who "live in caves" don't get Wisdom bonuses: drow, goblins, hobgoblins, kobolds, orcs, and ratfolk. Where are their wisdom bonuses? The most famous "survivalist" for goblins was a scared-stupid goblin turned starving maniac cannibal who was trapped in a Sandpoint house for several weeks because he was afraid of the dog.
The fact that they live in caves indicates that they are at least baseline capable of surviving in hostile conditions, which is what the Survival skill does. That a race survives in the wilderness does not necessarily mean that it must have a Wisdom bonus, but is one point in favor of them having it, since being better at survival is an effect of higher Wisdom. If another mental Ability is still more appropriate, the race should get it instead. I don’t find Intelligence or Charisma to be more appropriate for goblins than Wisdom, based on what those abilities do.

If they are primary casters, they will likely have higher Will saves by virtue of their class.
Uhh... Ok?
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
This screams warlock to me, which is a charisma caster you left off of your list.
Yeah, lots of classes use the “wrong” abilities for their casting. If I had my druthers, any classes that got their magic from their service to external sources (clerics, paladins, druids, Rangers, warlocks, etc.) would use Charisma, any whose magic was inherent (sorcerers, oracles, psychics, etc.) would use Wisdom, and any classes that got their magic from study and practice (wizards, bards, etc) would use intelligence. But that’ll never happen because tradition.

Either goblins have to go, or the "one physical boost, one mental boost" idea has to go, otherwise you're going to make goblins good at things they "shouldn't" be good at. Give them charisma to make them good at being sorcerers and warlocks, you also make them good paladins. Give them wisdom to make them good "follower" casters, you also make them good at skills the fluff says they're bad at. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
But also all of the mental abilities, including charisma, contribute to some things that goblins should be good at. I don’t really care if their boost goes into an ability that contributes to some things they should be bad at. I care that it goes into the score that contributes to the most things they should be good at and the least things they shouldn’t, which in my opinion is Wisdom.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I really don’t care what the description of Wisdom says it represents. I only care what Wisdom actually does. Actions speak louder than words and all that.

And there are no D&D mechanics representing a propensity to hide in furnaces or light things on fire.

Except there is no mechanical effect of Wisdom that reinforces this “crazy” description. Lack of focus and willpower? Sure, that’s something that actually clashes with Wisdom. I would argue not more so than their lack of social ability and knowledge clash more with Charisma and Intelligence, and I’m working under the assumption that PC races will have one of their fixed bonuses in a mental ability.
What the Wisdom description says that it represents guides how monsters are used, foes are built, and many of the underlying uses in spells and magic. If what it represents didn't matter then mapping mechanics to the stats would not be necessary. There may not be a D&D mechanic representing a propensity to hide in furnaces or light things on fire, but there are mechanics that say the lower your wisdom the less capable you are of rational thought, with a 0 Wisdom rendering you both irrational and unconscious. You are correct that "actions speak louder than words," and although you claim that you don't care what Wisdom represents, but, rather, what it does, your actions throughout many of your arguments are indicative that you do care about what Wisdom, Charisma, and Intelligence represents.

Ok, so bard might not be a terrible fit for goblins. I still say “magic that is granted by an external source” is a better fit for them than “inherent magic.”
Not a terrible fit? How would you expect an anti-writing culture to preserve its traditions, history, and heritage? Orally. Yeah, it turns out that bards are a big deals in goblin culture in Golarion. (As are Sorcerers for the record; they are Wizards that don't have to use nasty writing.)

So what I’m seeing here is that rangers, druids, and clerics (of Lamashtu), are all good fits for goblins.
You have made it abundantly clear that you are deadset on seeing what you want to see regardless of other evidence. I still have not seen a compelling argument from you as to why they should receive a bonus to Wisdom. What you want them to be good at does not mean that both stats should be oriented towards those things. Dwarves should make great fighters, but they do not receive an inherent Strength bonus, but they do receive a bonus to Constitution. Elves should be good rangers and druids too, but they only receive a bonus to Dexterity and not Wisdom. Dexterity is appropriate enough for goblin druids and rangers.

And? Alchemists aren’t casters and don’t necessarily need to learn their craft through study. An Alchemist could as easily learn through unguided experimentation, which is very Goblin like, especially if that experimentation is likely to result in explosions.
The point being is that you are ruling out a bonus to Intelligence on the basis of the wizard as caster alone, which is short-sighted. I am not saying that they should be good wizards. I am saying that your rationale is poor.

Personally, I don’t care about them. Maybe I’ll worry about them when we see them actually in PF2. Are they intelligence based casters? Do their gain their magic through intensive study and focus? Then they don’t seem like a good fit for goblins to me.
Witches are Intelligence-based casters. They gain their powers through "communion with the unknown" and powerful mysterious patrons rather than study.

So why not extend that submissive service to powerful entities like the gods?
They are, but generally not generally as clerics, but as other servants and slaves.

I don’t know, probably? Where do oracles get their magic from?
You say "probably" before even asking where they get their magic from? Okay. That approach seems backwards to me, but whatever. Oracles are basically spontaneously casting clerics that use Charisma. They do not draw from "a god," but instead from potentially multiple gods who share their beliefs. They tap into mysteries representing broader ideals (e.g., flame, ancestors, shadow, wood, etc.) rather than a deity.

Isn’t Handle Animal Charisma based in PF? Yeah, I see them being bad at that.
Now this just shows immense ignorance of goblins in D&D. Goblins in D&D have close associations with worgs, wolves, other mounts, and a number of other pets, at least apart from dogs and horses in Golarion.

I’m sorry, is every Ancestry portrayed as easily distracted by shiny things?
No, but your rationale was "gotta know where the shinies are," which could easily apply to numerous other ancestries; it's like writing an astrology description for ancestries. Easily distracted does correlate to low wisdom and Perception. Even then, being good at Perception does not mean that the ancestry in question warrants a bonus to Wisdom. See Elves, who receive a bonus to Perception checks without receiving a Wisdom bonus.

The fact that they live in caves indicates that they are at least baseline capable of surviving in hostile conditions, which is what the Survival skill does. That a race survives in the wilderness does not necessarily mean that it must have a Wisdom bonus, but is one point in favor of them having it, since being better at survival is an effect of higher Wisdom. If another mental Ability is still more appropriate, the race should get it instead. I don’t find Intelligence or Charisma to be more appropriate for goblins than Wisdom, based on what those abilities do.
Weak sauce argument.

Worship the spooky thing and it gives you power seems to me like the most quintessentially goblin-y expression of magic.
And funnily enough, this does not describe the spiritual approaches of either the Cleric or Druid, but it does fit much closer with the approaches of the Oracle and Witch.
 

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