The Goblin - Pathfinder 2's Newest Ancestry!

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Today's Pathfinder 2nd Edition update is all about the Goblin! Paizo introduces the first (and the newest) of the game's Ancestries. As always, this information will be added to the Pathfinder 2nd Edition Compiled Info Page!

• Goblins! Last night Paizo revealed the first of the Ancestries - the Goblin!
  • Boosts to Dexterity and Charisma plus one other ability score of your choice
  • Flaw to Wisdom
  • 6 hit points
  • Speed 25'
  • Common and Goblin starting language
  • Darvision (see in the dark as though it were daylight)
  • Sample Ancestry feats --
    • Burn It -- bonus damage on fire spells or alchemical items, and increases persistent fire damage by 1 points.
    • Junk Tinkerer -- craft ordinary, poor quality items out of junk.
    • Razor Teeth -- 1d6 piercing damage.
    • Very Sneaky -- move additional 5' when taking the sneak action (normally half speed) and possibly render target flat-footed.
• Jason Bulmahn on including Goblins -- "Concerning goblins and how they fit in Golarion: Times change and so do people's opinions. Goblins as PCs have been a part of our world since the first "We Be Goblins" adventure. Many of the comments here echo those from back during the launch of 3.0 when Half-Orcs returned to the game as a player choice. There was a lot of conflict at first, but the tone of them shifted over time. We always knew this would be a bit controversial and that there were some who would loudly proclaim "not at my table" and I get that. It's your table and your game after all. We are moving forward, trying to allow players to explore these characters, their culture, and their viewpoint. We are hoping to give you plenty of reasons, both mechanically and story-driven, to allow goblins in your game."
• Mark Seifter on that flexible ability boost -- "It's one of ways you get to really customize your ancestry to fit your character concept, melding the story and life of your character to the mechanics. Plus you can play the class you want without worrying about as much of an uphill battle with ability scores if you don't match the bonuses from the race with the class you had it mind. Incidentally, it provides a really nice design space to much more easily create and handle subraces that have different ability modifiers... "
• Mark Seifter confirms that repairing an item is a untrained use but building is trained only.
• Seifter on failed saves vs. dominate -- "the wording is subtly different now. Anyway, because it implies what you've said here, I wouldn't say "if you critically fail your save against dominate, you are completely under the spellcaster's control". There is still some possibility to resist a particularly abhorrent new order on a critical failure, but you're going to have to fulfill that first command no matter what."
• Community News --
  • Frank "Mottokrosh" Reding has put up the results of his survey regarding the future of his Pathfinder character sheet app.

 

[Charlaquin]

Wisdom is a poor fit for a bonus, because they have already decided that goblins have poor impulse control,are easily swayed by charismatic leaders, and have a hard time intuiting the unintended consequences of their actions.

None of which are characteristics that the Wisdom Score tangibly, mechanically impacts. The reasons that are cited for why Goblins should have low Wisdom have nothing to do with what the Wisdom actually does.

Arguably, intelligence could fit for a bonus. Apparently they have a knack for tinkering together improvised items from trash, making a Wile E Coyote, super-genius style goblin a possibility.

But again, what does Intelligence actually do? In PF1 it gives you bonus languages, bonus skill points, makes you better at casting spells as a wizard, and makes you more likely to succeed on checks involving appraise, craft, knowledge, and spellcraft. With the possible exception of Appraise and Craft, none of those things mesh with what one would expect a Golarion goblin to be particularly good at.

Alternatively constitution could have a bonus. Goblins are supposed to be able to eat almost anything without getting sick. PF1 NPC goblins have a 12 constitution.

Sure, but Dexterity is a better physical ability to boost for goblins, and the formula seems to be +2 to one physical and +2 to one mental.

 

[snickersnax]

None of which are characteristics that the Wisdom Score tangibly, mechanically impacts. The reasons that are cited for why Goblins should have low Wisdom have nothing to do with what the Wisdom actually does.

Mechanically they are easily intimidated (the DC of which would be determined by the goblin's wisdom), they are easily fooled (bluff checks are determined against sense motive, ie wisdom), they have low wisdom saves and are thus easily manipulated by magic.


But again, what does Intelligence actually do? In PF1 it gives you bonus languages, bonus skill points, makes you better at casting spells as a wizard, and makes you more likely to succeed on checks involving appraise, craft, knowledge, and spellcraft. With the possible exception of Appraise and Craft, none of those things mesh with what one would expect a Golarion goblin to be particularly good at.

Well two out of 4 is about as good as it gets for goblins except for dexterity.

Sure, but Dexterity is a better physical ability to boost for goblins, and the formula seems to be +2 to one physical and +2 to one mental.

I'm not sure why that has to be the formula, talk about a sacred cow...

 

[Charlaquin]

Mechanically they are easily intimidated (the DC of which would be determined by the goblin's wisdom), they are easily fooled (bluff checks are determined against sense motive, ie wisdom), they have low wisdom saves and are thus easily manipulated by magic.

Fair point. So Goblins having low Wisdom equates to them being easy to manipulate. I’ll buy that. I’d still pick Charisma over it as their penalized ability and I’d still pick it over either for their boosted mental ability, but I’ll concede that Wisdom does have an impact on how resilient a character is to manipulation.

Well two out of 4 is about as good as it gets for goblins except for dexterity.

Two out of seven, you mean, and that’s only if you lump all knowledge skills together. I’d much rather my goblins be difficult to lie to than have them be good at knowledge checks. I’d rather they make good rangers, clerics, and Druids than good wizards. I’d rather they be good at sense motive than spellcraft. I’d rather them be perceptive than know a bunch of languages. Yeah, Appraise and Craft are fitting. So are Survival and Use Magic Device.

I'm not sure why that has to be the formula, talk about a sacred cow...

It doesn’t have to be, it just is. That’s the formula they’re using for playable races, and they’re making goblins a playable race. My interest is not in complaining about that framework, but in insuring they make the best decisions they can within the framework they’ve chosen.

 

[snickersnax]

My interest is not in complaining about that framework, but in insuring they make the best decisions they can within the framework they’ve chosen.

I think that's the biggest problem. As soon as you give goblins a bonus for any of the mental stats, and then you compare goblins to the other races and say, "OK now goblins are the best at this... better than humans and tied with one other ancestry that really excels in this ability." It just falls flat. It feels like you're giving goblins a participation award. Hey goblins you suck at this but we want you in the club so now you're most charismatic, most wise, or smartest.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think that's the biggest problem. As soon as you give goblins a bonus for any of the mental stats, and then you compare goblins to the other races and say, "OK now goblins are the best at this... better than humans and tied with one other ancestry that really excels in this ability." It just falls flat. It feels like you're giving goblins a participation award. Hey goblins you suck at this but we want you in the club so now you're most charismatic, most wise, or smartest.

Ok. That doesn't change the fact that they're making goblins a PC race, and they're giving PC races +2, +2, -2. Like it or not, it's what we've got to work with. And to me, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha is the most fitting mechanically. If the narrative needs to be adjusted to account for that, so be it. But I have a feeling "Goblins shouldn't be a PC race" and "PC races shouldn't get +2, +2, -2" is not the kind of feedback Paizo is looking for.

 

[Kurviak]

I think that's the biggest problem. As soon as you give goblins a bonus for any of the mental stats, and then you compare goblins to the other races and say, "OK now goblins are the best at this... better than humans and tied with one other ancestry that really excels in this ability." It just falls flat. It feels like you're giving goblins a participation award. Hey goblins you suck at this but we want you in the club so now you're most charismatic, most wise, or smartest.

Humans, half orcs and half elves will mostly have two floating +2, so they ara balanced with every other playable race including goblins

 

[snickersnax]

Ok. That doesn't change the fact that they're making goblins a PC race, and they're giving PC races +2, +2, -2. Like it or not, it's what we've got to work with. And to me, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha is the most fitting mechanically. If the narrative needs to be adjusted to account for that, so be it. But I have a feeling "Goblins shouldn't be a PC race" and "PC races shouldn't get +2, +2, -2" is not the kind of feedback Paizo is looking for.

I was trying to find where it must be +2 physical, +2 mental, -2 variable stat idea originally came from, and the best I could find was that it was following the pattern of PF1 not necessarily from anything officially released about PF2.

Anyone have anything official from Paizo on that topic?

Unlike other races, goblins didn't follow that pattern in PF1. They had +4 dex. -2 str, -2 cha.

If it had to follow a +2/+2/-2 My first choice would be +2 dex, +2 con, -2 cha and if it had to be +2 physical/+2mental/-2 floating then I give up. I can't find anything that is satisfying

both +2 wis and +2 cha counter the the flaw of goblins flocking to strong leadership, so I guess that just leaves +2 intelligence.

 

[Kurviak]

I was trying to find where it must be +2 physical, +2 mental, -2 variable stat idea originally came from, and the best I could find was that it was following the pattern of PF1 not necessarily from anything officially released about PF2.

Anyone have anything official from Paizo on that topic?

Unlike other races, goblins didn't follow that pattern in PF1. They had +4 dex. -2 str, -2 cha.

If it had to follow a +2/+2/-2 My first choice would be +2 dex, +2 con, -2 cha and if it had to be +2 physical/+2mental/-2 floating then I give up. I can't find anything that is satisfying

both +2 wis and +2 cha counter the the flaw of goblins flocking to strong leadership, so I guess that just leaves +2 intelligence.

I’m not 100% sure but I think the information came from the 3 published ancestries that, in fact, have exactly that pattern

 

[Charlaquin]

I was trying to find where it must be +2 physical, +2 mental, -2 variable stat idea originally came from, and the best I could find was that it was following the pattern of PF1 not necessarily from anything officially released about PF2.

Anyone have anything official from Paizo on that topic?

Kurviak is correct. It has not yet been explicitly stated that one +2 must be in a physical attribute and one must be in a mental, but that has been the case with all three Ancestries they have revealed so far, including Goblin, and it fits the pattern generally followed by PF1.

On the subject of things that haven’t been explicitly stated, but we can pretty reasonably assume, they haven’t actually said what exactly “Ability Bonus” and “Ability Flaw” mean. I will be very surprised if they don’t mean +2 and -2 to their respective score, but technically speaking, it’s as likely that they mean something else as it is that the two bonuses don’t go one to physical and one to mental.

Unlike other races, goblins didn't follow that pattern in PF1. They had +4 dex. -2 str, -2 cha.

Which I would say is a case of weakening the design to suit the narrative. I’m glad they don’t seem to be doing it that way in PF2. I hope the ability adjustments they end up getting in PF2, whatever they may be, that the fiction is adjusted to match. But I’m not counting on it.

If it had to follow a +2/+2/-2 My first choice would be +2 dex, +2 con, -2 cha and if it had to be +2 physical/+2mental/-2 floating then I give up. I can't find anything that is satisfying

both +2 wis and +2 cha counter the the flaw of goblins flocking to strong leadership, so I guess that just leaves +2 intelligence.

Cool. Thanks for your input.

 

[houser2112]

Ok. That doesn't change the fact that they're making goblins a PC race, and they're giving PC races +2, +2, -2. Like it or not, it's what we've got to work with. And to me, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha is the most fitting mechanically. If the narrative needs to be adjusted to account for that, so be it. But I have a feeling "Goblins shouldn't be a PC race" and "PC races shouldn't get +2, +2, -2" is not the kind of feedback Paizo is looking for.

I believe they've said that nothing in the playtest is set in stone. Whether we should believe that is anybody's guess. I was on the fence before about this issue ("eh, why not?" being my general feeling, as long as they're not booting out a more iconic race to do so), but I think that if this is indeed a formula that all the races will adhere to, I have to change my feeling to "Goblins shouldn't be a PC race". None of the mental ability scores seem appropriate to give goblins a bonus to.