D&D (2024) The Great Nerf to High Level Martials: The New Grapple Rules

[mellored]

How so?

Probably the fact that you could get expertise on Athletics checks. And it was opposed by skills that few creatures had.

You could get d20+15 compared to the opponents d20+3 Str. It broke bounded accuracy.

You can still get DC 18 vs d20+3 Str against a few creatures, but most will have a Str or Dex save, so more of the time it's 18 vs +8.

Grapple + prone still works. Just not as often. And you can prone while still dealing damage.

 

[Mistwell]

Can a Beast of the Sea now grapple better than the melee class build focused on grappling, since it auto-grapples on a Binding Strike hit and then the DC to escape is spellcaster spell DC?

It's odd that initiating a grapple is now a save., but escaping a grapple remains an ability check.

 

[MockingBird]

It's odd that initiating a grapple is now a save., but escaping a grapple remains an ability chcheck.

I dunno, kinda makes sense. I look at it like in a grappling sport (jiu-jitsu, wrestling) the initiating grapple is an attempt to shoot in or go for a take down, so the opponent is "saving" against the attempt. Likewise, the ability check is the grappled attempting to use pure strength or preferably technique to escape.

 

[Mistwell]

I dunno, kinda makes sense. I look at it like in a grappling sport (jiu-jitsu, wrestling) the initiating grapple is an attempt to shoot in or go for a take down, so the opponent is "saving" against the attempt. Likewise, the ability check is the grappled attempting to use pure strength or preferably technique to escape.

It's needlessly fiddly. Shouldn't have to remember two different systems for the same thing, depending on which round it is.

 

[MockingBird]

It's needlessly fiddly. Shouldn't have to remember two different systems for the same thing, depending on which round it is.

I agree with you on that point.

 

[Horwath]

Probably the fact that you could get expertise on Athletics checks. And it was opposed by skills that few creatures had.

You could get d20+15 compared to the opponents d20+3 Str. It broke bounded accuracy.

You can still get DC 18 vs d20+3 Str against a few creatures, but most will have a Str or Dex save, so more of the time it's 18 vs +8.

Grapple + prone still works. Just not as often. And you can prone while still dealing damage.

Wow, taking a non combat feat and actually making use of it in combat?
We can't have that, can we?

maybe the monsters need to invest in some skills instead?

 

[Shiroiken]

It's odd that initiating a grapple is now a save., but escaping a grapple remains an ability check.

I think it's an "active vs reactive" concept. Reactive rolls are usually saving throws, while actions are usually ability checks. This actually brings it more in line with the rest of the game.

 

[mellored]

Wow, taking a non combat feat and actually making use of it in combat?
We can't have that, can we?

Skill math and combat math are a bit different. There is no expertise for hypnotic pattern.

You can still use athletics to climb a tree in combat.

maybe the monsters need to invest in some skills instead?

So you want every monster to have the same skills?

 

[Horwath]

Skill math and combat math are a bit different. There is no expertise for hypnotic pattern.

and there is no need.
And we should not compare grapple and hypnotic pattern.

You can still use athletics to climb a tree in combat.

yes, true.

So you want every monster to have the same skills?

no all the same,
but few skills here and there could be added.

 

[mellored]

and there is no need.

And there is no need for grapple to have +5, often +10 over all other effects.

And unless your going to give every monster athletics, and remove expertise. It's much easier to make it a saving throw.

And we should not compare grapple and hypnotic pattern.

Why not?

It takes a full action to escape a grapple. Grapple + prone is nearly a stun.