The Great Wheel Cosmology as an "assumed part of a D&D world"

[Corathon]

Was the Great Wheel really an essential part of D&D? It wasn't used at all in B/X or BECMI, and didn't receive a mention in the 3.0 core books (getting added in at the Manual of the Planes, IIRC). While I know 2nd edition AD&D mentioned a number of planes, I don't think it was specifically laid out as the Great Wheel until Planescape. And I don't remember a lot of referencing to the Great Wheel in 1st edition AD&D until Manual of the Planes, although my memory could be rusty on that one.

Where exactly was the Great Wheel introduced? How often has it been included in the core books, rather than added on later?

The arrangement of inner and outer planes was introduced in the first edition PHB, I believe (it may have been in Dragon issue before that). It wasn't called the "Great Wheel" (and looked more like a box than a wheel), but it was the same planes and the same arrangement as the Great Wheel. It was not presented as "the Planes of Greyhawk" but rather as "the Planes of AD&D".

In 27 years of playing D&D, 100% of campaigns that I've played in or run have used that arrangement of planes. Though admittedly, in some games, we never reached high enough level to do any plane-hopping.

 

[Wasgo]

Not sure if I agree with that. Flavor text is much easier to ignore then rules text. You can't really alter the "balance" of the game by saying elves are all purple with pink feet for instance.

I agree with that too. It's just there are also mechanics that deal with planar stuff, and those are more what I was referring to. Also, any adventures that use the planes will have to be adapted as well. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that for some people, like myself, it will seem like an unnecessary hassle.

I'm glad we're getting new ideas to gank from, and not the same old been done before stuff with a new coat of paint.

I also agree with this. I just wish that the new stuff didn't replace the old stuff.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Where exactly was the Great Wheel introduced? How often has it been included in the core books, rather than added on later?

This is mostly from memory (and I started playing after 2nd edition comes out, so some of it is working backwards):

The Great Wheel was introduced in the 1st edition Manual of the Planes(Edit: I just remembered it was in the 1E PHB first). Since it was in the generic Manual of the Planes, it became the "default" cosmology for D&D at the time. I don't know if any of the 1st Edition campaign settings specified a different cosmology or not. I know Greyhawk used the Great Wheel.

When 2nd Edition came out, the Great Wheel was already the default and was made more prominent as the default cosmology. Even before Planescape came out, Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk were both using the Great Wheel.

Since 2nd Edition was the edition of the Grand Unifying Theory of D&D, it's when all the products (in one book or another) where specified as belonging to the same universe under the Great Wheel. All of the Prime Material worlds all had the same Outer Planes and the gods of Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Dragonlance were assumed to live in the same places (and some of them to actually BE the same gods with different names). The Prime worlds were all reachable by portals, plane shifting magic, and Spelljamming vessels. Although Athas was often described as having no natural portals to other worlds and to be so remote compared to Realmspace, Greyspace, and Krynnspace that no one knew how to get there via Spelljamming. This is also(if I have the timing correct) when a bunch of the smaller settings were put into the Forgotten Realms as other continents.

I know that since I grew up playing in 2nd Edition(including games set in homebrew worlds, and all the major campaign worlds, and spelljammer and planescape), I've just always been under the assumption that ALL worlds were in the Great Wheel and that that assumption was part of D&D.

When 3rd Ed came out and all the worlds started getting their own cosmology, that assumption was broken and I just figured life went on and we played a different D&D now. It will change again next edition.

 

[Stalker0]

To me, the most dnd part about the planes are the planes themselves, not how they are arranged.

Ravenloft is Dnd, Sigil is Dnd, the Abyss is dnd etc. As long as those are there, I don't care too much about how they are arranged in the grand scape. Wotc has destroyed the concrete elemental planes in 4e, and I'm okay with that too. Most planescape adventurers don't happen on those planes, so making them into something new is fine with me.

So I'm waiting to see the nitty gritty of the new cosmology before I really make up my mind. If they have good descriptions for some of the iconic planes, it will still feel like dnd to me.

 

[Arnwyn]

While I know 2nd edition AD&D mentioned a number of planes, I don't think it was specifically laid out as the Great Wheel until Planescape.

Incorrect (not that it may make any difference): it showed up in MC8 Outer Planes Monstrous Compendium Appendix.

Where exactly was the Great Wheel introduced? How often has it been included in the core books, rather than added on later?

1e DMG (PHB?), IIRC.

 

[Desdichado]

Whereas easily 75% of the games I've played that referenced the planes at all did NOT use the Great Wheel, yet retained the 'Bigby's' series of spells.

Of those 25% that used the Great Wheel, most were explicitly Planescape campaigns.

Yep.

And, don't we already have like three other threads in the 4e subforum that are already explicitly doing this exact same topic to death?

 

[Wormwood]

And, don't we already have like three other threads in the 4e subforum that are already explicitly doing this exact same topic to death?

Hope springs eternal, I suppose.

 

[Mercule]

The Great Wheel isn't a sacred cow. Planar travel has become somewhat key to D&D, but the specific layout of those planes isn't a big deal. To be totally honest, I think every setting should have its own cosmology and set of planes. The Great Wheel is Greyhawk's. Eberron has its own, as do the Realms (though they were once said to share one with Greyhawk).

Dark Sun was explicitly set in a different multiverse, attempts to retcon it into working with Planescape or Spelljammer not withstanding. Dragonlance wasn't as explicit, but wasn't particularly warm to the concept.

Lack of cosmologies for settings like Birthright is far from the same thing as implicit use of the Great Wheel. It's just that -- a lack of definition.

Personally, I like the new cosmology. It doesn't take anything away from any existing setting that uses the Great Wheel -- those planes can all exist exactly as they do, now. Instead, it provides a common framework upon which people can build their own cosmologies (IMO, an important piece of homebrewing). That shared framework allows a shared language on the matter (and, no, the Great Wheel didn't). It also makes different settings more compatible without a particularly strong implication that they should be crossing over.

Really, the Great Wheel was very characteristic of earlier editions. It was exclusionary and defined by exception. New rules had to be created for every new idea. I really hope this is an indication that the 4E developers are attacking that "manage by exception" concept and that it carries over to other aspects of design.

 

[Davelozzi]

Since 2nd Edition was the edition of the Grand Unifying Theory of D&D, it's when all the products (in one book or another) where specified as belonging to the same multiverse under the Great Wheel.

Fixed it for you.

Sorry, I couldn't resist, I've always loved the word "multiverse".

 

[dmccoy1693]

Technically, the new cosmology almost entirely mirrors the Great Wheel.

I'd have to argue, "I don't think so," to that point. What we know of it so far is similar. The basic design concepts may be quite similar, but we have yet to see the implimentation. That may be something completely different then anything the Great Wheel now possesses.