The Guards at the Gate Quote

[Reynard]

I'm sorry, but, have you actually read the AD&D DMG? Because EGG tells you all sorts of things that aren't fun. Acting in character, a la "amateur thespianism" is a good example of something that isn't fun according to EGG and should get kicked to the curb.

I'm sure others with much better knowledge of the AD&D DMG can find lots more quotes of things that I personally find enjoyable in RPG's being called unfun by Mr. Gygax.

Name one, with an actual quote. Gygax tells the reader to do a lot of things, and tells the reader to avoid doing lots of things. But I dare you to find a quote that has Gygax telling you that something *isn't fun* so you shouldn't do it; the closest example I can think of is when he tells the reader that "you cannot have a meaningful campaign without proper timekeeping" which is not the same things as telling them not to engage in anything Wyatt thinks is "boring."

 

[Janx]

something somebody noted in some other thread and subforum on the topic of flamewars, is that the way to get people to notice a topic is to state an exagerated position.

Wyatt says gate guard encounters are not fun and that you should skip them.

Some of us, having sat through unfun gate guard encounters, see his point and have stricken them from our games.

Others, always made sure their gate guard encounters had a purpose and thus did not need to remove them from their game.

I think Wyatt has acchieved his purpose. If you read his words and continue to have unfun gate guard encounters, then you suck. If you made them fun or breezed past them, problem solved.

 

[Hussar]

I don't have a bunch of quotes at the ready, but you are absolutely correct that Mr. Gygax had all kinds of issues with "right and wrong" ways of playing. And it even gets to points that he seemed to contradict himself at times depending on the mood or target audience.

I say that with a ton of respect for the groundbreaking that Gary brought us.

Oh, hey, I totally agree here. And, many apologies, I was trying to posrep your post and accidentally reported it, maybe. I didn't realize they'd turned off the posrep. Totally my bad.

But, yes, what you're saying here is 100% accurate. EGG was never shy in telling people exactly how he thought the game should be played.

 

[pemerton]

something somebody noted in some other thread and subforum on the topic of flamewars, is that the way to get people to notice a topic is to state an exagerated position.

Wyatt says gate guard encounters are not fun and that you should skip them.

Some of us, having sat through unfun gate guard encounters, see his point and have stricken them from our games.

Others, always made sure their gate guard encounters had a purpose and thus did not need to remove them from their game.

I think Wyatt has acchieved his purpose. If you read his words and continue to have unfun gate guard encounters, then you suck. If you made them fun or breezed past them, problem solved.

Good post, but XPing seem to be disabled.

Name one, with an actual quote.

I did, upthread. Gygax describes Monty Haul games as "a crashing bore for most participants".

 

[TheAuldGrump]

See that word 'most'?

It is what we like to call a 'qualifier'. It means that he is saying that it is usually true, not always true.

Read Mr. Wyatt's quote again. See what isn't qualified? There is no qualifier.


If I say that 4e is a crashing bore then I have not added a qualifier.

If I say 4e was a crashing bore for me, then there is a qualifier.

These two statements are not the same things. One is a general statement that 4e is a crashing bore. The other is particular to me.

One can easily demonstrate that not everyone always finds 4e a crashing bore. The statement claiming such is therefor false.

I can easily demonstrate that I found 4e to be a crashing bore, and give a long and boring diatribe as to why.

Mr. Gygax used a qualifier. Mr Wyatt did not.

So no, not the same thing.

The Auld Grump

 

[pauljathome]

I find your generalizations to be inaccurate.
.

Were you playing in 1980 odd? I was.

I don't (and didn't) have access to any surveys or the like so my opinion is (perforce) based upon my memory of Dragon articles, Dungeon adventures, and what was actually being published for sale (or, at least, the subset available in the VERY good gamestores here in Toronto) as a reflection of what the community was doing.

But I'll stand by my opinion. Note, I'm NOT saying that Dungeon Crawls were the only thing going on, I stated that they were a much larger part of the game than when 4th Edition was launched.

 

[BryonD]

Oh, hey, I totally agree here. And, many apologies, I was trying to posrep your post and accidentally reported it, maybe. I didn't realize they'd turned off the posrep. Totally my bad.

UGH!!! After more than 10 years of posting someone has complained about something I said??!!?? It is going to take me some time to cope with this.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

Were you playing in 1980 odd?

Yes, I started in 1982. The Basic set at that time featured B2 Keep on the Borderlands, which covered all the elements you generalize as missing. And my experiences with various groups at the local gaming clubs (first my Junior High Library After-School Club, then the Gamemasters' Guild of Waukegan at my FLGS) and annual visits to GenCon supported this balanced view of city, wilderness and dungeon with roleplaying. Bree-yark.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Yes, I started in 1982. The Basic set at that time featured B2 Keep on the Borderlands, which covered all the elements you generalize as missing. And my experiences with various groups at the local gaming clubs (first my Junior High Library After-School Club, then the Gamemasters' Guild of Waukegan at my FLGS) and annual visits to GenCon supported this balanced view of city, wilderness and dungeon with roleplaying. Bree-yark.

Hear that guys? Bree-yark! They're surrendering!

The Auld Grump, Hell, I ran that for Pathfinder a year back....

 

[Hussar]

TheAuldGrump - are you saying that EGG was reticent in making strong claims on how the game should be played? That he was always careful to take into account everyone's possible playstyle? Really?

Look at his reactions to the idea of adding in Critical hits to the game. Or many, many quotes from Dragon or White Dwarf. Never mind stuff straight out of the PHB or DMG. Heck, reread the section on finding secret doors and tell me that that's not telling people straight up how the game is meant to be played.

As I said earlier, EGG was brilliant and I respect the heck out of him. But, he was never shy about telling people exactly how the game was meant to be played.

Knew I could find that bit about finding secret doors with a bit of effort:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...ilers-spoilers-everywhere-22.html#post5693495

Are you saying that this isn't exactly the same as what Wyatt did?