The Healing Paradox

[I'm A Banana]

I wonder why folks are so quick to strip out and re-label "wounds."

Why not keep HP as a measure of wounds? Y'know, POINTS for representing HITS. Keep them low, and slow to recover.

Then, if you want a more narrative, plot-centric kind of game, you can double your HP and treat half of them as "plot armor" that recovers faster.

Why do HP need to be the plot armor? Why can't they be the wound system, with a different kind of plot armor as an add-on?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Why do HP need to be the plot armor?

Because they always have been, and because D&D has never actually had a meaningful wound system (excepting in UA or something similar that I'm forgetting right now).

Thus, it makes sense to keep HP as what they've always been and add a new wound module for those who like that sort of thing.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Because they always have been,

What they "always have been" is two things. If you're going to separate those two things out from each other, why not keep wounds in the HP column and invent a new system for "plot armor?"

After all, HP damage has always been able to kill you.

because D&D has never actually had a meaningful wound system (excepting in UA or something similar that I'm forgetting right now).

That's part of the issue, though: people have played D&D using HP as more-or-less wounds just fine until (and even through) 4e. D&D has a wound system. It's called Hit Points. What D&D might not have is a good plot armor system.

Another way to think of it: D&D needs a system to represent sword attacks that can kill you in order to be playable and recognizable as D&D. That's essential. D&D doesn't need a system to represent plot armor. That's something that can be added on to increase survivability.

Hypothetically.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

What they "always have been" is two things. If you're going to separate those two things out from each other, why not keep wounds in the HP column and invent a new system for "plot armor?"

After all, HP damage has always been able to kill you.

Yes, that's the result of running out of plot armor. You are no longer part of the story; you die.

That's part of the issue, though: people have played D&D using HP as more-or-less wounds just fine until (and even through) 4e. D&D has a wound system.

No, they haven't. They may have thought they were doing so, but they were not.

Wounds impact your ability to perform actions. Someone with a sprained ankle can't run as fast as he did before he sprained that ankle. Someone with a broken arm cannot fight with that arm, and it takes months, not days, to heal back to full use of your arm (and, even then, you're more likely to break it again in the future).

Rolemaster has a wounds system - an attack from an axe can lop off your hand or your head. D&D does not have a wounds system - the only way to lose a hand is via a Sword of Sharpness (which, as you'll note, does not interact with the HP mechanic); your head, a Vorpal sword (again, no interaction with HP mechanics).* In D&D, taking HP damage doesn't wound you; it just makes it easier for you to be dead the next time someone or something deals HP damage to you.

So, if you want a comprehensive wound mechanic in your D&D, you need to add it in, because it was not there before.

* Alternatively, DM fiat can accomplish this in D&D, as well (e.g., "You spring the trap, and a scything blade slams down and cuts off your hand."). This is hardly an example of mechanical support, however. And, again, it likely bypasses the HP mechanic entirely.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Yes, that's the result of running out of plot armor. You are no longer part of the story; you die.

So, why does Constitution add to your Plot Armor? Why not Charisma?

And why do you die so that you're dead and not just die so that you are "unconscious?" People who are central to stories don't just simply die.

In other words: There's a lot of things that could be included in "Plot Armor" HP that aren't part of D&D HP.

No, they haven't. They may have thought they were doing so, but they were not.

That's a big problem with your point right there: you think you know what other people need better than they do.

I submit that you are sorely mistaken. That people who have been having fun using HP as mostly-wounds were actually having fun like that. Legitimately. Maybe even without your permission.

It's not necessary that wounds mechanically affect a character's performance. These are heroic fantasy characters, after all: no, a sprained ankle doesn't hurt their ability to continue fighting. Yes, they can heal from a broken arm in days. They are heroic fantasy badasses who fight dragons and kill vampires, not normal people. The HP system not being a realistic simulation isn't a point against it being used as a wounds system because not everyone who wants HP to represent actual damage actually wants a realistic simulation of that damage.

Wound systems don't need to do any of that.

They just need to draw a line between "I'm in fighting shape," and "I'm dying."

Hey, guess what HP do?

So, if you want a comprehensive wound mechanic in your D&D, you need to add it in, because it was not there before.

Neither is a plot-armor system, since Constitution adds to your hit points and Charisma does not, and since falls and swords deal HP damage and being insulted and unlucky does not, and since death is a consequence of HP damage and not a consequence of story needs.

HP does the work of both, so if you want one or the other, you're inserting something. The game needs a way to risk death from encounters (HP). The game does not need plot armor/stamina/luck points/hero grit/fate peanuts. So why take hp to mean "fate peanuts" and not to mean "the dividing line between fighting and dying?"

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

So, why does Constitution add to your Plot Armor? Why not Charisma?

Good question! Why does getting tired not cause HP damage?

And why do you die so that you're dead and not just die so that you are "unconscious?" People who are central to stories don't just simply die.

Because the original goal was high lethality (it came from a war game). And, in D&D, you get to come back into the story even after you're dead - but not unless you know some high-level priest types.

And people who are central to stories die all the time. I can't believe you'd say that in a post-Song of Ice and Fire world.

In other words: There's a lot of things that could be included in "Plot Armor" HP that aren't part of D&D HP.

That's a big problem with your point right there: you think you know what other people need better than they do.

I submit that you are sorely mistaken. That people who have been having fun using HP as mostly-wounds were actually having fun like that. Legitimately. Maybe even without your permission.

It's not necessary that wounds mechanically affect a character's performance.

I posit that this is fundamentally incorrect. If it does not affect your performance, then it was not a wound - mechanically speaking. You can roleplay and describe all you want about your character being out-of-breath, or having a twisted ankle, or an arrow through his bicep, but unless those things are actually affecting the mechanics of the game, somehow, you are not mechanically wounded, and therefore the game is not using wound mechanics.

no, a sprained ankle doesn't hurt their ability to continue fighting

Then there is no mechanical wound present. Period.

Etc.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Then, if you want a more narrative, plot-centric kind of game, you can double your HP and treat half of them as "plot armor" that recovers faster.

Why do HP need to be the plot armor?

6 of one, half-dozen of the other. Whether you take hps as they currently work - rising rapidly with level, recovering quickly (whether via clerical healing, regeneration, surges, extended rests or wands of cure light wounds), carrying no penalties - as 'plot armor' and add a 'wound' option. Or take hit points, make them into a wound-tracking system - with penalties and healing more difficult - then tack on 'plot armor points' on top of them that recover faster and don't carry penalties. Either way you end up with a wound-tracking system and a wound-avoiding system.

 

[jrowland]

Interesting thread...my eyes started to bleed about page 10, but still a good read.

This thread reminds me of my favorite Christmas movie: Die Hard. John McClane takes a lickin' but he still kicks ass. The dude ran across broken glass, slicing his feet up pretty bad, but one short rest later he is good to go. Quick healing indeed.

But I am also reminded of Sir Henry Morton Stanley and his expeditions into the heart of Africa. The exploration side of D&D loves this sort of thing: Outfit the characters and move into the great unknown facing environmental hazards, monsters, and restless natives. The slow death of disease and poisons/toxins, the attrition of supplies, and lack of "civilized" habitation lead to a steady decline. In games terms, daily rejuvenation kills this concept.

From a gamist perspective, what we have here is a resource (hit points) that are absolutely necessary for continued play. When that resource is depleted to a point where the players only option to replenish them is a Long Rest, it can break the verisimilitude/flow of the game. In order to "press on" as it were, there needs to be some way to replenish that resource "in-situ". We have clerics and magical healing, but is it enough to "press-on" for a whole chapter/adventure? Is it enough at all levels of play? Is a cleric necessary? I think the consensus is that its insufficient. So we have the OPs paradox ( or is it pair-o-docs?).

I personally hope the D&D Next allows one to "dial" this resource, not just game to game, but IN GAME as the story needs dictate. I don't expect such dial to be "core", but rather I should be able to dial, in my game, a John McClane assault against the terrorist in the tower in one adventure, and switch to a expedition into The Heart of Darkness for another.

I think Most recognize that a 2 resource is likely the most elegant solution. Truth is, D&D Next has it: Hit Points and Hit Dice. As an idea, and this of the top of my head, so not balanced, but allow a "surge" like heal at the end of a short rest: basically heal 1/4 Max HP without using a HD. This covers the proportion of HP that is considered "fatigue". This helps keep the party going without expending resources. You can still use HD if you need more, and of course magic healing. At the end of a long rest you automatically heal 1/2 Max HP. You also regain 1/2 of Max HD (min 1). This allows for *some* attrition to persist over night, but not so much as to make recovery too onerous.

Here is where the dials come in: Because the numbers are some fraction of a total, DMs can modify according to taste. Lower or increase the fraction of healing.

I think adding a "push-on" carrot helps too. For example, gain a "Fate" point for every "Nat 20" rolled on any check. "Fate" can be banked during a day, but resets to zero after a long rest. Spend "Fate" to
1) recover a spent spell (level = fate spent)
2) regain one HD per fate spent
3) Add damage to an attack (5hp per fate spent)
4) add hp to a healing spell (5hp per fate spent)
5) gain advantage on a roll (2 fate spent)
6) impose disadvantage on a roll (2 fate spent)
etc...

My 2 cp

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

But I am also reminded of Sir Henry Morton Stanley and his expeditions into the heart of Africa. The exploration side of D&D loves this sort of thing: Outfit the characters and move into the great unknown facing environmental hazards, monsters, and restless natives. The slow death of disease and poisons/toxins, the attrition of supplies, and lack of "civilized" habitation lead to a steady decline. In games terms, daily rejuvenation kills this concept.

Why is it necessary to deplete hit points to achieve this, rather than, say, medical supplies and ammunition? And why would diseases or poisons be tied to HP (since they haven't been before)?

This seems like something that the disease track from 4E / condition track from SW Saga Edition could do really well - and, eventually, you would run out of the medical supplies necessary to allow the non-magical healers to treat the party, meaning that their slide down the appropriate track would become nearly a foregone conclusion. Sure, you're at 100 / 100 HP (for all the good it will do you), but you've lost 5 Hit Dice off the top and take a -5 penalty to all checks and saves and are treated as exhausted.

That gives you characters who are in a bad shape without requiring long-term HP attrition.

Of course, you *can* do it with HP attrition (D&D has for years, unless you have a cleric with you, of course), but I would rather open up the design space such that there are other, I hope better, ways to do it, as well.

Otherwise, interesting post!

 

[Hussar]

KM - you asked why HP are adjusted by Con and not Cha. Well, let's be honest here, in 1972 (ish) when they were designing D&D, the idea of HP as Plot Protection didn't exist. The language for that idea wasn't part of the lexicon of game design. No one thought of it in those terms. You got HP from Con because Con measures how tough you are. That it was contradictory to how HP were actually being defined didn't really matter - it's a game term and nothing more.

Why do some units in a war game get more hp than others? Well, presumably, they're "tougher" - a veteran unit can soak more damage than a green unit. And that's about as far as the thinking went.

However, we're forty years later, a couple of million man hours of game play later, and thousands and thousands of pages of game design later. The idea of "Plot Protection" is now part of the RPG lexicon. We've learned a thing or two in the past couple of decades.

Why keep HP as meat when HP as meat never really worked? Protestations aside, it's so full of holes that it's ridiculous. If there is never any mechanical effect of losing HP, other than losing HP themselves, then the only thing that HP represent are HP. What is a HP? Well, it's a fairly arbitrary number that we give characters to keep them fighting.

And that's all HP ever were. Because it makes no sense to make them anything else.