The Lorethief core class - An acquirer of obscure knowledge (revised again)

[Ismaul]

Thanks again for all the comments.

Despite the 'few direct damage' spells, they've got plenty of spells that would give them something to do in a fight, from grease and ghoul touch to stinking cloud and baleful polymorph.

I agree totaly. D&D is very combat focused, so they must at least have a minimal capability in combat. That said, his spell list is going to force him to think more of ways to go around direct confrontation. Even the bard has more offensive spells, including shatter, shout, greater shout and the various summon monster. The bard has more party buff spells, including healing, and the lorepilfer has more enemy debuff spells.

compare this guy to the bard. He's got better spellcasting (including some non-arcane spells), as many skill points, almost as good a class skill list, bardic knowledge, and a host of special abilities.

Sure. He's got better spellcasting, but less versatile. The bard also has divine spells, including the powerful healing ones. Additionaly, the lorepilfer loses the med BAB, weapons and armor + armored casting (armor is replaced with the Deceptive ability). Remember that the bard also has bardic music, which is at least worth a couple of special abilities. Bardic music is very useful, as is betters all the party.

Not only that, but there's huge amounts of synergy between their special abilities, their spellcasting stat, and many of their skills - everything important to this class is keyed off of Charisma. Note that other classes with lots of special abilities spread out the required stats - paladins need the physical stats, Wisdom, and Charisma, for instance.

Good remark. There is Deceptive, Mock Danger, Spellcasting and the optional Snatch the Secrets that are linked to Charisma. Snatch the Secrets will be linked to Intelligence instead. For Deceptive, it replaces light armor. If it is keyed to something else than Charisma, it might lose it usefulness. Lorepilfers are really vulnerable at low levels, they don't have armor, magic armor or shield spells. It's not that much that is keyed to Charisma. Intelligence and Dexterity are really important too, as they are key abilities for most of the class skills. Paladins have the best fighting ability, plus spells, plus special abilities (including healing). Sure their main stats must be diversified. But the lorepilfer is not the best with skills, not the best with spells, and very bad at combat. I'll have to think more about it, but I think intelligence could play a bigger role.

Lot of you have suggested to make Intelligence the spellcasting ability. My primary idea was to make magic come from the lorepilfer's chaotic nature, to be a part of him. That's the reason it develops into some defensive abilities. His inner magic wards him. If i made intelligence the main stat, the defensive abilities wouldn't make sense anymore. Assuming that could be worked out, I personnaly don't like much the Vancian spellcasting system and spellbooks (I know I'm a bit biased here, but hey). One way I could see it work out, would be to base spellcasting off Charisma (spontaneous), but max spell level would require Intelligence. It's unusual, but it would stay true to the initial idea, and would make the key abilities more diversified. Clever to learn, inner capacities to cast, I see it working.

because he's a class all about gaining hidden knowledge and such, why not make him prepare spells and be able to gain more via writing to something like the wizard. This would make him really be pilfering arcane knowledge for his direct benefit. You'd just have to put in some disclaimers (such as no direct damage spells and whatever other restrictions you see fit).

Just a quick note here, I believe any caster who learns spells by writing them can only learn those on his spell list, so no need for the disclamers. Also, I'd have to remove the "Arcane Knowledge" special ability if I was going to do that. I just thought that giving the ability to transcribe spells would remove the spells known limitation in a way, and might make the lorepilfer a bit more powerful. In that case, I'd have to completely remove the spells known limit, and reduce the spells per day. I don't really want to do that. Opinions on this?

For the protective special abilities. Deceptive is really required or he's dead. An alternative would be to give him light armor and armored casting like the bard, but it would remove a bit of flavor. The other abilities aren't over the top, except Elusive (sanctuary) as you've said. My first idea was to give him spell resistance like the monk (at level 13, SR 10+level). It wasn't really flavorful enough. Then I created an ability that would permit him to distract casters. Was too trickster like, looked powerful and I wasn't satisfied. So, I then created an ability called Disrupt Magic, which gave him the ability to counterspell with greater dispel without readying the action, a certain number of times per day (once at 11th level, 2 at 15, 3 at 19). Not that bad IMHO.

Then I saw sanctuary, and I thought it fit really well. If you think about it, the DC is going to be 11+Cha mod, which will be 15 with 18 Charisma. A low level character with a good will save or high wisdom can make it with an average d20 roll. At high levels those will almost always succeed. It seems to be much better against fighter types, who have low will saves, but still 15 is not that hard, even with a +0 will save. Giving the ability after level 7 is really useless, and it is useless against mid-high level casters. Seems not that good finally. It's not like it's a permanent energy attack like the warlock's, it's a first level defensive spell that negates if you attack. Maybe I should make the DC increase a bit with levels to keep it useful, or add a spell resistance ability like I wanted to do before, or disrupt magic.

It's funny, I too thought it looked a bit powerful at first, but after analysing it a bit right now I got really surprised. Suggestions on this? That would really help.

Sorry for the real long post, hope I haven't put you all to sleep .

Oh, and you guys prefer lorepilfer or lorethief?

 

[DungeonmasterCal]

Oh, and you guys prefer lorepilfer or lorethief?

I vote lorethief.

 

[Ismaul]

Here was the first edition of the class, which I removed for space/clarity since we're now at the 3rd one.

 

[deltadave]

What are the abbreviations used in the bonus feats section?

quote
dash [War], dodge, eschew materials, extra spell [Arc], force of personality [Adv], forge ring, improved diversion [Adv], inside connection [RoD], insightful [Arc], obscure lore [Adv], open minded [Adv], quick reconnoiter [Adv], scribe scroll, urban stealth [RoD] and urban tracking [RoD]
quote

 

[Ismaul]

War = Complete Warrior
Div = Complete Divine
Arc = Complete Arcane
Adv = Complete Adventurer
RoD = Races of Destiny

Those abreviations of the Complete series are the ones used by WotC (see here), I don't know for the Races book.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Wow, nice revision there Ismaul. Mind if I snag this class (and lorethief is a very good name btw) and make it a PrC for my games? Hope you don't mind, thanks!

 

[Ismaul]

Wow, nice revision there Ismaul. Mind if I snag this class (and lorethief is a very good name btw) and make it a PrC for my games? Hope you don't mind, thanks!

Thanks.
I don't mind you using the material, go ahead.

Have you found any balance problem? Within the class, I know that 5th level is weaker than the others, and that 1st level is a mixed bag for a 1st level character as there is no real standing power.

Aside from that, balance with other classes might be a bit hard to judge. I think in a combat based campaign, they will be underpowered, while in a more roleplaying campaign they will have an edge. Thoughts?

 

[ender_wiggin]

He's balanced, but I dont' think he's balanced in the best way.

Because DnD is so based on combat (subjective, I know), your gonna have a hard time pressing this onto the players. If you look at the other core classes, one thing that they all had in common was that they had a niche in combat. In a fight, there was a role that each core class played. I'm having a hard time finding a niche for this class; he can cast a few support spells and a few other cool spells, but all in all he's built for sneaking, not combat, and that's going to be a problem in balance, no matter what.

Perhaps you could flesh out his ability to read minds / mind affect so that he could do it better in a fight. That's fairly limited though, so you should somehow broaden this. I would make more unique spells that deal with mind trickery and using knowledge to his advantage.

 

[Ismaul]

I know every core class is designed to approach combat in a certain way. This class would generally do so by running away, hence the fast retreat ability and the several defensive ones. Sure, in a standard D&D campaign this isn't something that's viewed as an option, but in a more roleplaying one or in an urban setting, it might be. I think it doesn't hurt to have less combat oriented classes, if they are played in the right circumstances. But, it's in trying to make him a bit more useful in combat that I introduced the find weakness ability.

While I'm pretty happy with the version I have now, I have a couple of ideas I could introduce to make him more useful in combat. Something like stealing someone's knowledge to weaken him (level draining), combat ability stealing (similar to the Spellthief ability to steal spells in Complete Arcane, but this would be pretty limited). It could also be a mix of both, something like make the opponent's abilities turn back on him.

I don't really know if I want to go that way, but if I do the bonus feats would go away. This mean there's major reworking of the class to do. I'll have to think about it.

Anyone's got more comments?

 

[Ismaul]

Okay, so I revised the class again.

Find weakness has been removed and transformed into Anticipate, while the ability comes in later, it's a bit more useful now.

Because of the loss of find weakness at level 1, loretheft has been given new functionality, similar to inspire competence.

Several abilities have moved up a level : hide motives, deceit, chaos mind, hide in plain sight and omnicient. Also, the bonus feats are gone. This all powers down the class a bit, and I'm not really sure if it's necessary. Should I power the class a bit more, like giving back the feats or something similar?

I'm also thinking that loretheft abilities could be turned into something similar to a skill, removing the number of times per day and powering up a bit the class. Ideas?


***

Here is the shortened second version of the class, for reference and comparision. Only what has changed is there.

[b]Level BAB     Fort Ref Will   AC    Special[/b]
1     +0       +0  +2   +2    +0    Fast retreat, find weakness, loretheft, 
				    obscure lore, secrets sense, trapfinding				   
2     +1       +0  +3   +3    +0    Mock danger
3     +1       +1  +3   +3    +0    Hide motives, low-light vision, mindthieving
4     +2       +1  +4   +4    +0    Bonus feat
5     +2       +1  +4   +4    +1    Trackless step
6     +3       +2  +5   +5    +1    Entropic warding 
7     +3       +2  +5   +5    +1    Darkvision, deceit
8     +4       +2  +6   +6    +1    Bonus feat
9     +4       +3  +6   +6    +1    Urban camouflage
10    +5       +3  +7   +7    +2    Evasion, pilfer memory
11    +5       +3  +7   +7    +2    Chaos mind
12    +6/+1    +4  +8   +8    +2    Bonus feat
13    +6/+1    +4  +8   +8    +2    A thousand faces
14    +7/+2    +4  +9   +9    +2    Negate magic
15    +7/+2    +5  +9   +9    +3    Hide in plain sight
16    +8/+3    +5  +10  +10   +3    Bonus feat
17    +8/+3    +5  +10  +10   +3    Urban shapes
18    +9/+4    +6  +11  +11   +3    Greater entropic warding
19    +9/+4    +6  +11  +11   +3    Omniscient
20    +10/+5   +6  +12  +12   +4    Bonus feat

[size=-2]Loretheft: A number of times per day equal to one-half the lorethief’s level + his Int modifier (minimum 1), a lorethief can use his abilities to steal knowledge. Each ability requires a minimum lorethief level to qualify. Starting a lorethieving effect is a standard action, and requires only thought to activate. Some lorethieving abilities require concentration, which means the lorethief must take a standard action each round to maintain the ability. If he fails at an attempt to use a lorethieving ability, it still counts against his daily limit.

Find Weakness (Su): A lorethief of 1st level can use his intricate knowledge of to find ennemies’ weaknesses and exploit them. He gains a bonus equal to his class level on Knowledge checks used to find a subject’s special powers or vulnerabilities and to identify monsters, which he can use even if untrained. If he succeeds on the check, he might learn valuable information as per the skill, and gains an insight bonus of +2 to attack and damage rolls and +1 to spell DCs against this type of opponent for 3 rounds. He can extend half the insight bonus to his allies by communicating his findings as a free action, using speech or appropriate magic, such as telepathy. At 5th level, and every three lorethief levels thereafter, the bonus on attack and damage rolls increases by 1 (+3 at 5th, +4 at 8th, +5 at 11th, +6 at 14th, +7 at 17th, and +8 at 20th), while the bonus on spell DCs increases by 1 every six levels, starting at level 8 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th).

Bonus Feat: At 4th level and every four levels thereafter (8th, 12th, 16th and 20th level), a lorethief gains a bonus feat. He may take any skilled-based feat, as long as one involved skill is a class skill. He may also take appraise magic value [Adv], brew potion, craft wondrous item, dash [War], dodge, eschew materials, extra spell [Arc], forge ring, improved diversion [Adv], inside connection [RoD], insightful [Arc], obscure lore [Adv], open minded [Adv], quick reconnoiter [Adv], scribe scroll, urban stealth [RoD] and urban tracking [RoD] if he meets the prerequisites.[/size]