D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Micah Sweet]

But... we do agree that it does, unless the game mechanics specifically break that. Even if you play in a pre-written sandbox arbitrated by a computer, the moment you start describing something, you are engaging with story elements.

And, even before that, when someone says "I want to play a gnome" you are already engaging with the fantastical. Even if they mean a garden gnome statue, because those don't move and have agency, and a PC does. The moment you start playing, you have agreed you are entering into a fantasy world, with fantasy rules.

Sure, and I want those fantasy to be consistent, and specifically that any action not possible by our understanding of Earth physics be called as supernatural or magical, unless the fact of it is blatantly obvious (like dragon flight). Called out in the game material, mind you, not in the setting where what's normal and what isn't will likely vary widely from the real world. Because no matter what your opinion is on what counts as fantasy, all of us players live in the same real world, subject to the same rules. That's what I'm advocating for.

The fact that I also don't want the game to run on narrative physics is a separate issue.

 

[dave2008]

I will never accept that the solution to caster/martial situations is giving martials magical items made by casters, to imitate their abilities.

Not that it really changes the discussion; however, there is plenty of fiction where magic items are not made by casters. I don't think any of the famous Norse mythological magic items are made by casters for example.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Wearing clothes makes it harder to swim too, but Seals can swim with their uniform on, and mage robes don't make it harder to swim (despite IRL that would be just as deadly). Why is it stupid that a fantasy adventurer is a strong enough swimmer to swim with their armor on? Beowulf, remember, typical normal dude prince, swam for seven days in the ocean in full armor. My Orc Fighter is swimming for less than a minute across the shore.

Beowulf had supernatural abilities. And I would prefer extending that difficulty in swimming to other kinds of clothing as well.

 

[dave2008]

A fire giant is 18 feet tall.

A human fighter fighting a fire giant is like a human toddler fighting a human adult.

1. Stand up.
2. Look down.
3. Imagine a 5 year old jumping up and stabbing you in the eye

Either
Human fighters can jump 5 feet straight up with no running start like in Street Fighter
OR
D&D is missing the combo move that lets human fighters injured a giants legs to make the bend over and get stabbed in the neck.
OR
Human fighters kill giants by stabbing them in the skins like a vidya game.

...or these bits of action are assumed in the combat abstraction of the game. Combat in D&D is not 1:1. A roll to hit doesn't mean you swing the sword once. It is assumed a lot is going into that action.

 

[Minigiant]

Not that it really changes the discussion; however, there is plenty of fiction where magic items are not made by casters. I don't think any of the famous Norse mythological magic items are made by casters for example.

Some settings, mythological and fictional, have dwarves create the best weapons and be incapable of even using magic.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And yet, we have covered this extensively.

41/42 species options in the game are explicitly supernatural. Humans are supernatural, per their own text, and there is a reason to include supernatural elements into the other classes. 60% of fighter subclasses are explicitly supernatural.

I know, I know, but they didn't use the word "magic" in the right place in the fighter class. But as was argued earlier in the thread, class descriptions can include a list of their abilities. Meaning if you give them supernatural abilities, the explanation is included with the abilities. You are demanding the cart be unloaded in front of your house before we even get the horses out of the stable.

Does the fighter actually have any supernatural abilities, with supernatural explanations? Can you provide any examples of what you're talking about, or is this just theory?

 

[Micah Sweet]

A fire giant is 18 feet tall.

A human fighter fighting a fire giant is like a human toddler fighting a human adult.

1. Stand up.
2. Look down.
3. Imagine a 5 year old jumping up and stabbing you in the eye

Either
Human fighters can jump 5 feet straight up with no running start like in Street Fighter
OR
D&D is missing the combo move that lets human fighters injured a giants legs to make the bend over and get stabbed in the neck.
OR
Human fighters kill giants by stabbing them in the skins like a vidya game.

Option 2. Add that move!

 

[Minigiant]

...or these bits of action are assumed in the combat abstraction of the game. Combat in D&D is not 1:1. A roll to hit doesn't mean you swing the sword once. It is assumed a lot is going into that action.

Sure but the abstraction still needs to explain how a 6 foot gap in reach is clear.

That's the point .

Either fighters are supernatural or better warriors that most people imagine.

 

[Micah Sweet]

...or these bits of action are assumed in the combat abstraction of the game. Combat in D&D is not 1:1. A roll to hit doesn't mean you swing the sword once. It is assumed a lot is going into that action.

Sure, but by that logic there shouldn't be any combat maneuvers at all. Seems less fun and less realistic.

 

[dave2008]

Option 2. Add that move!

I don't think you need to, it can be assumed.