D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[dave2008]

Very true. However, those people who advocate for this route would demand to know how a non-magical person could possibly make a magical ring, because non-magical people are only capable of making non-magical rings, just like in real life.

I find this argument to be dumb, but it is exactly what would happen.

sure people will always argue. You can't please everyone - this thread is a good example of that. I thought my initial post was fairly benign and people not only took offense, but made inaccurate assumptions about my beliefs and thoughts about martials, casters, magic, and the game!

 

[Micah Sweet]

You are contradicting yourself again. You want any action not possible by the understanding of Earth physics to be called out as supernatural or magical UNLESS the fact of that action is blatantly obvious... well... a man punching through a steel wall because he is inhumanly strong is blatantly obvious, just like dragon flight, so it doesn't need to be called out, right?

The problem is, you think dragon flight is blatantly obvious, but actually to most people... it isn't. Most people are not familiar with the square-cube law either. People often see characters in movies jump of bridges to land safely in water that is a hundred feet below them, not realizing that that is wildly impossible, as hitting the water from that height would seriously injury you. Most people don't need these things spelled out, because they either accept them, or realize "oh, it is a fantasy game."

And seriously? You want me to believe all you are advocating for is that we call the supernatural supernatural? We have. You then insist we justify WHY we can call it that, because the fighter doesn't have a supernatural bone in its body according to you, despite that being proven false again and again. Or you turn around and say "But those people don't want it to be supernatural!" when we finally say "fine, let's rewrite the fighter then". You are advocating for anything that grinds this conversation to a halt.

A person punching through a steel plate is blatantly obvious, but an otherwise normal-appearing person having the ability to do so is not.

 

[dave2008]

I just don't see how that matters.

Yes it is clear that you don't. Can you at least understand why it might matter to others? I understand what you are saying, and except that it works for you and that is great. However, it clearly doesn't work for everyone - is that really such a surprise?

If you go to a swimming pool, you don't question why the people in that pool are wet when you are dry.

And you don't expect that some people in that pool might be dry, despite being immersed in water.

Yes, those examples are not related to the discussion really at all. It is about our (human player) perspective, not our character's perspective. Our characters don't read the rulebook -we do.

For example, if I stepped through portal and started seeing people jumping 15' in the air, I would definitely question what the heck was going on!

 

[Micah Sweet]

Very true. However, those people who advocate for this route would demand to know how a non-magical person could possibly make a magical ring, because non-magical people are only capable of making non-magical rings, just like in real life.

I find this argument to be dumb, but it is exactly what would happen.

All you need to do is say they have a supernatural crafting technique that allows them to make magic items. That's it. It's really not that hard. You just seem to really dislike that sentence.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I am very specifically avoiding that term, although I have seen you use it before.
Supernatural also had a fairly specific definition in earlier editions of D&D, different to the way that you are using it. (It was explicitly magical, and would not work in anti-magic, although it could not be dispelled I believe.)
A good chunk of this forum probably played those earlier editions. Hence why I chose to use the Extraordinary term, which isn't magical, just the way that the world can work in the fantasy and action genres that D&D operates in.

Like I said, I'm fine with your term. The issue is that there are people here who object to the use of any term.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Where does it state that? Where does it say in the story that Beowulf is magical/supernatural?



And the designers of the game, and the majority of players, would prefer to keep things exactly as they are.

You don't speak for the majority of players. Please don't attempt to do so, as if that matters at all anyway.

And if Beowulf were in a game and not a story he would have supernatural (or extraordinary) abilities, because he does things normal humans can't, and because stories and games are different things.

 

[dave2008]

I am very specifically avoiding that term, although I have seen you use it before.
Supernatural also had a fairly specific definition in earlier editions of D&D, different to the way that you are using it. (It was explicitly magical, and would not work in anti-magic, although it could not be dispelled I believe.)
A good chunk of this forum probably played those earlier editions. Hence why I chose to use the Extraordinary term, which isn't magical, just the way that the world can work in the fantasy and action genres that D&D operates in.

I like that term and will use it going forward - thanks!

 

[dave2008]

Where does it state that? Where does it say in the story that Beowulf is magical/supernatural?

It doesn't, but he is. Beowulf rips of Grendel's arm (who is giant IIRC). It takes about 2000lbs of force to rip an average humans arm off. The WR for deadlift is just over 1000lbs. That is superhuman strength.

I find odd/interesting in this whole discussion is that I think it lessons the story if we think Beowulf is not supernaturally strong.

It was clear with the Greeks, almost all, if not all, the heroes were had some divine blood that gave them their extraordinary strength. The Greeks knew their heroes were beyond mortal bounds.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Yes it is clear that you don't. Can you at least understand why it might matter to others? I understand what you are saying, and except that it works for you and that is great. However, it clearly doesn't work for everyone - is that really such a surprise?


Yes, those examples are not related to the discussion really at all. It is about our (human player) perspective, not our character's perspective. Our characters don't read the rulebook -we do.

For example, if I stepped through portal and started seeing people jumping 15' in the air, I would definitely question what the heck was going on!

And if the door of that portal included a ln image mage in the hands of a fire giant, with a hellhound in the background, I'd expect you to have figured out that you aren't in Kansas anymore.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

It seems like you think there are objective categories of fantasy elements here.

There aren't.

I feel the response you quoted shows I understand the subjectivity of fantasy.

That is not really the issue though is it?