D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[Chaosmancer]

I don't think I called anyone any names and if you want to put your points in copnstitution do that, but in a pB or SA game you are making a purposeful decision to be bad at the non-combat pillars when you do that. The only classes that can be good at all 3 pillars while investing heavily in Constitution are Bard, Rogue and Ranger (and only Ranger because of the Fey Wanderer), other casters can manage two at a time while having a high (16) con at start.

As a point of fact it is not necessary to invest in Constitution to survive in a game designed according to the counter balance guideling. That is fact. That doesn't mean you will always survive as a luck has something to do with it, but RAW 5E combat is EASY and statistically you are not likely to die because you chose a 10 constitution instead of a 14.

If you make a point buy Wizard with a 16 Constitution, and she is not going to be good at all 3 pillars at all 20 levels.

Because having a high con prevents the wizard from taking spells?

You claimed fighters can't do specific things and they can do all of them (although not necessarily at the same time)

THe difference between a martial character and a spellcaster, is the access to spells. IF the only way you can be good at social and exploration is spells, then even if the martial character can figure out how to get spells, then we have a problem in the design, because it inidicates that the design is not equitable.

Eldritch Knight. If you want to play another subclass the only way I know of is to take Arcana proficiency or smiths tools proficiency and make a helm of telepathy.

However, the same is true for casters. What if I want my Wizard to cast Silence or my Cleric to cast Vortex Warp?

Those two simple examples are actually more difficult than getting Suggestion on a fighter.

Sure, those things are useful, but it isn't like the Wizard or the Cleric don't have other useful spells. This isn't about "how do I get suggestion on my fighter" (Which would take being level 13, when the other full casters got it at level 5) it is about how the answer is always "get the right spell"

Build choices to get it!

You are complaining that other classes get to cast spells and do these things, you want your fighter to be able to do these things like those other classes do ..... but you don't want to cast spells.

If you want your fighter to cast suggesting build a fighter that has access to suggestion and 2nd level spells.

I don't think your complaint has any merit.

Why not? The fighter has NOTHING that the other classes are can't get within their own design space. Again and again, the solution proposed to any problem is to get the correct spell, but no wizard ever looks at the fighter and goes "how can I do that?" Because... they CAN do that. And doing so costs so little for them, that they can additionally do a bunch of other things.

Sure different classes have different core abilities.

A Bard who choses to do this gives up a spell known and nothing else. It is relatively low cost. A fighter gives up a feat or picks a specific subclass.

But a Bard needs to run a 12 Constitution to get 6hps per level and a Bard needs to pick a specific subclass to get extra attack, gets it later, and never gets 3 attacks.

But the Barbarian and the Paladin also don't get 3 attacks. And I thought that dropping Con was fine? A 12 Con is nothing. I pretty much never see ANY character with less than a 12 con.

And meanwhile, the Lore Bard or the Creation Bard... are still good in combat. Sure, they aren't stellar in melee combat, but they can alter the entire flow of a fight with a single spell. Just like all other casters.

Many, many more people (virtually the entire population) has survived being burned. I have been burned more times than I can count, most recently on Saturday. I have never been shot with an arrow and I can't imagine being even grazed with an arrow is going to be more damaging than a 1st degree burn and the vast majority of 2nd degree burns.

Firebolt averages 5 damage. A commoner has 4 hp. Firebolt does not give you minor 1st degree burns that sting a little. You are looking at 3rd degree burns most of the time.

The benefit is playing the character you want to play. If you want to play a character without any magic, then having an option to choose a character without any magic is a benefit.

As long as your character is viable, being better or worse is irrelevant if your goals are based on the character thematics.

Now if your goal is to be powerful then being weak is a problem, but it is one easily remedied by making a powerful character.

IT is a problem if the best way to make a powerful character, is to be a spellcaster. That shows an issue in the design.

We need to talk about what viability looks like, because most of the time, I've found fighters and barbarians feeling like they are unable to contribute outside of combat, which gets worse for them, when the caster or the diplomacy character completely subverts the combat with a single action.

There is no way to increase the chance of an enemy failing a save when they use legendary resistance or when they are immune to the condition your "instant combat ender" causes.

As someone who has played a lot at high level (15+) over the last 2 years, I can say confidently that damage is the best way to bring down many enemies. At high levels there are a lot of enemies fighters (even those with low constitution) excel at battling.

When those spells are effective, they are effective but when they are not they are near useless.

Not every fight features enemies that have legendary resistance. Not every enemy is immune to every effect. And casters can still do damage, on top of their other actions.

???? Then what is the problem?

That was sarcasm.

Who would be happy to have built their entire character to excel at a specific type of challenge, to then hear the wizard say "Oh good, then I won't take X so you can your thing. I'll take Y instead". An entire build, which the wizard could have invalidated, by taking a single spell. And didn't, just to be polite.

This happens all the time IME. Teleport, Fly, Calm emotions, various healing spells .....

There are all kinds of spell selections that affect the choices of other characters in a team game.

Uh huh. Not, what martial choices affect the choices made by other characters in the team game? What martial option is equivalent to these?

As a reminder, what I said was "every class can do impossible things by 11th level"

So yes you are agreeing with me and impossible things are not unique to spells, casters or magic. All classes can do impossible things, like I said!

Okay, yeah. Everyone can fall off a building.

Only spellcasters can fly back up up, or collapse the building with a word, or turn the building into a monster to fight for them.

Actually I have played 2 games in the last year where it explicitly solved a problem (Rise of the Drow and Rime of the Frostmaiden) .... or at least enabled survival.

So... the entire party jumped off the side of a building? Cool. How did that allow the fighter to solve a problem?

Feats are part of the base class.

No, they are an optional rule

I will also point out that casters do not have any specific spells or specific abilities that spells enable as part of the base class. They actually need to choose spells before they can do these "impossible" things. Non-casters have similar choices they can make to do additional "impossible" things. A smaller less diverse subset of choices, but choices just the same.

No Wizard has the ability to cast suggestion and no Bard has the ability to read minds as part of the "base class". They need to make choices to enable that. Similarly a Fighter could make choices to enable either of those two things.

Unless it is a featless game. You won't see a wizard or a bard in a "spell-less" game, but you can see fighters in featless games all the time. There is a big difference here.

Yes, if a fighter wants to cast spells they need to get spells. I think that is pretty obvious.

But if they want to contribute without spells... they just need to hope no one else tried to build a character who tackles social or exploration problems in any way, shape, or form.

We can already do that. Fighters get feats and feats do this. Why is that unacceptable?

Also I hate the weapon mastery system developed for ONE.

1) Feats are optional
2) The only feats that you keep mentioning give spells. We are looking for spell-less solutions.

There also are just not feats that give the sort of benefits we are trying to get here, and making them feats opens them up to everyone, meaning that the spellcasters are still going to be able to do everything the martials can do plus more.

 

[Chaosmancer]

martials would do so much better for HP if you bumped the hit-die sizes of fighter and monk and gave them and rogue, barb, ranger and paladin 4e's healing surges rather than hit-die healing, healing a full quarter of your HP per hit-die use would do SO MUCH for these melee class's staying power.

Only in part.

See, there is a fundamental problem still. You are kind of a jerk if you insist on going on, while the wizard has 6 hp left. I don't do many sport things, but I imagine if I was hiking, and one of my friends was sweating buckets, gasping for air, and barely able to go on... I'm not going to insist we keep going another three miles without resting because then I'll hit my groove.

Additionally, any time you set up a goal, like "we need to keep going to prevent [X] from [Y]"... then the spellcaster players aren't going to use all of their resources. They are going to save resources for the massive threat they know is coming. So, you might get the middle section of a long series of fights and encounters where the fighter or rogue is catching up, but then they are left weakened and hurting for hp by the time you get to the final encounter. And the caster still has their prepared nuclear options because they didn't use them until it was time for the important fight.

I really just don't see anyway to make asymmetrical resource expenditure work over a 10 to 12 combat day. Human nature and human cooperation are just not going to allow for things to follow a math formula here.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

This isn't about "how do I get suggestion on my fighter" (Which would take being level 13, when the other full casters got it at level 5)

you mean level 7 and level 3 respectively? suggestion is a level 2 spell, not a level 3 spell.

i mean, that doesn't change your overall point, but still.

 

[NotAYakk]

It's "Batman in the Justice League" effect. He doesn't become supernatural to match Superman. He becomes an ace pilot, the world best detective, a master ninja, and his martial arts history is played way up.

I mean, Batman is supernatural. He bends reality all of the time to make his crazy plans work and survive.

Bstman is

• A expert detective
• An ace pilot
• An expert driver
• A trained ninja
• A Top 10 martial artist on the planet
• An dabbler in multiple sciences and histories

All BEFORE gadgets. Batman is the best fighter in Gotham and chooses to nerf himself with fists and boomerangs instead of stabbing criminal organizations silent in the dark.

And he's supernaturally good at those. His detective skills are not just amazing, they are plot-backed. His piloting and driving skills are beyond what any mortal can do. Being a ninja lets him do impossible things. Martial arts in this world are supernatural, in that they let you do things beyond what a human can do in our reality. Etc.

It is like saying "he's just strong, but not supernatural" in a world where you can learn to lift a battleship by lifting something 1% heavier every day until you are that strong (start with 1 lbs, increase weight by 1% every day, in 5 years you can lift a battleship). (log(35,000*2000)/log(1.01) / 365 = a bit under 5)

Does that battleship-lifting person have supernatural strength? In-world fiction, no, she just got gud.

...starting to understand why some people let their players take maximum hit points...

I'm playing with this actually.

1. You get 1d8 HD at level 1. The "non-class HD". (if you are small, it is 1d6).
2. Maximize all HP from HD.
3. Bandaging wounds takes 10 minutes and lets you spend HD, faster with a healers kit check.
4. Short rest is a reasonable overnight sleep (including while camping). It recovers half of your HD. You can spend a HD on recovering a level of exhaustion, and HD on regaining ability damage.
5. Long rest is a week in a safe spot, like a city. You can do downtime activities and the like; anything adventure-like (fights, etc) extends it.

HD sizes matter a bit more than they do in baseline games. This also opens up substantial space to give classes additional power-ups.

So.... what is the problem with adding new abilities to the martial characters, off-loading the design into the skill system, and gaining access to it via an ability, in the same way the Weapon Mastery system was designed? Why is this unacceptable?

I find most skill powers to end up restricting what you can do with skills rather than enhancing them, unless they are written to aim for near-exalted levels.

Not that I'm against that.

The Talent system (inspired by a pre-Basic Thief I read about) I keep on futzing around with is basically a half caster spell-slot like progression. But instead of Vancian or fuel, each Talent is an ability, from level 1 to 5.

Level 1 abilities cover 1-4, Level 2 5-8, Level 3 9-12, Level 4 13-16, and Level 5 17-20.

T1 is L1 Talents
T2 is L2 and some 3 Talents
T3 is L3 and some 4 Talents
T4 is L5 Talents

Each Talent provides a mechanical veto. X just happens. No check based on your character's abilities; maybe a save on the target.

Ie, Tumble might be a level 1 Talent that states "On your turn you do not provoke opportunity attacks before you take your action". And lets give it some more utility: "You can make an Acrobatics check as a reaction in a number of situations. When falling, you can reduce falling damage you take by the amount of your check. When failing a Dexterity saving throw, you can roll an Acrobatics check against the same DC and pass if you beat it. When hit by an attack, you can roll an Acrobatics check against the to-hit roll, and the attack misses if you succeed."

There, a nice level 1 martial Talent.

We can extend this up to level 5 Talents, which are similar in narrative impact scale to "you can cast wish once per day".

...

Now, as we want to have some distinction between Magical, Supernatural and "Mundane" martials, I'd shoe horn in the concept of Power Sources.

Each Talent is tied to a Power Source. Marital Power Source Talents have a requirement of a certain skill being trained (or the like). But other Power Sources can exist, and Talents tied to them can be less Mundane.

Getting a Power Source can be like getting a magic item. In legends, we have heros that drink the blood of a dragon to get its power; that might be a way to get a Power Source. In fact, we could have Power Sources beyond the basic Martial one require attunement slots in 5e, and the Power Source itself grants abilities like a magic item does.

So now we can have a series of Power Source fueled talents.

Having Wings might be a L3 Talent. The Draconic Power Source might give access to "Wings", as could the Fey, Fiendish, Celestial and other Power Sources. If you Have Wings, you just get a 60 fly speed; when you take damage at 1/2 HP and below, you have to make a Concentration check or lose control and fall 200'.

Other talents could be:
You are bigger. Large, Huge, Gargantuan.
You can run very fast (100'+ per turn).
You can regenerate.
You are insanely strong (double dice weapons, 10x lifting capacity)
You inspire loyalty, and your loyal follows are inspired to being badasses
Inhuman levels of Rizz
You can disappear
You are inhumanly prepared
You can walk on raindrops and leaves
You can run on walls
You can climb anything
You can walk on water
You don't get tired
Your blows leave craters in the ground and smash walls
You can bounce thrown stuff with inhuman power and precision
You can jump inhumanly far
You can unlock things instantly
You can modify and disable traps insanely fast
Animals you ride are capable of impossible feats
You can convince someone to be your friend
You can reconstruct what happened in a room in the last 24 hours at a glance
You always know if someone is telling a lie
Your lies appear as truth to anyone detecting them including magic
You can force someone to answer your questions honestly
You know the exact price someone would require to do something
Your words act like Suggestion
Your mind cannot be read
Illusions are obvious to you

but really, just look at List of Solar Exalted Charms - more than half of them can be converted into a non-spell like "you are just awesome, you can do X whenever you want".

 

[CreamCloud0]

Only in part.

See, there is a fundamental problem still. You are kind of a jerk if you insist on going on, while the wizard has 6 hp left. I don't do many sport things, but I imagine if I was hiking, and one of my friends was sweating buckets, gasping for air, and barely able to go on... I'm not going to insist we keep going another three miles without resting because then I'll hit my groove.

Additionally, any time you set up a goal, like "we need to keep going to prevent [X] from [Y]"... then the spellcaster players aren't going to use all of their resources. They are going to save resources for the massive threat they know is coming. So, you might get the middle section of a long series of fights and encounters where the fighter or rogue is catching up, but then they are left weakened and hurting for hp by the time you get to the final encounter. And the caster still has their prepared nuclear options because they didn't use them until it was time for the important fight.

I really just don't see anyway to make asymmetrical resource expenditure work over a 10 to 12 combat day. Human nature and human cooperation are just not going to allow for things to follow a math formula here.

i mean, the post i was responding to was saying that martials run out of HP before casters run out of spell slots, caster HP wasn't even the resource in danger of running out.

martials take much more of a beating in the thick of battle, casters can still pretty safely contribute from a distance with their spells and still have their own hit-die to heal with even if that's not going to be as efficient as martial healing surges, it's swings and roundabouts, they might both be doing a marathon of the same length and the fighter might be more sporty but the fighter's path is also uphill and has boulders they need to climb over as opposed to a decently level path for the less fit caster.

 

[Minigiant]

I mean, Batman is supernatural. He bends reality all of the time to make his crazy plans work and survive

The point is that in universe, he's not supernatural.

He just paid for training gruelling expensive training and was driven enough to do it. That's why he could train street orphans into Robins.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The point is that in universe, he's not supernatural.

He just paid for training gruelling expensive training and was driven enough to do it. That's why he could train street orphans into Robins.

Batman, as he is presented in Justice League situations, IMO only works in a game making heavy use of metacurrency, and probably narrative mechanics.

In his own book, it's more like he's much higher level than everything he deals with.

 

[Chaosmancer]

you mean level 7 and level 3 respectively? suggestion is a level 2 spell, not a level 3 spell.

i mean, that doesn't change your overall point, but still.

Ah, my mistake. For some reason I thought it was. Thanks for the catch

 

[Minigiant]

Batman, as he is presented in Justice League situations, IMO only works in a game making heavy use of metacurrency, and probably narrative mechanics.

In his own book, it's more like he's much higher level than everything he deals with.

Again not really.

In DC, the many supernatural heroes are "poor" and "dumb". They usually are fully reliant on their powers or some backer and have not gone into advanced study of any advanced education outside of their own body or magic (if magical).

Because they are a bunch of nonhumans, aliens, and powered up "normal" people who would lack those skills in a dietetic manner

Batman, the Robins, and most of Rogues Gallery are full of super scientists, super technicians, super ninjas, super warriors, and the most insane people on the planet.

There are not as many "Highly Skilled people with Super Powers" in DC.

When the skilled get powers like in Marvel, the badass normals are almost all government agents and corner martial arts and espionage.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'm playing with this actually.

1. You get 1d8 HD at level 1. The "non-class HD". (if you are small, it is 1d6).
2. Maximize all HP from HD.
3. Bandaging wounds takes 10 minutes and lets you spend HD, faster with a healers kit check.
4. Short rest is a reasonable overnight sleep (including while camping). It recovers half of your HD. You can spend a HD on recovering a level of exhaustion, and HD on regaining ability damage.
5. Long rest is a week in a safe spot, like a city. You can do downtime activities and the like; anything adventure-like (fights, etc) extends it.

HD sizes matter a bit more than they do in baseline games. This also opens up substantial space to give classes additional power-ups.

How would you try and do it with keeping short rests to 30 minutes or an hour, and long rest to a night?

I'm not really a fan of the sleep for a short rest, week in a city for a long rest, style of play. But I do want bandaging wounds to heal people. Thinking maybe, action to spend HD?

I find most skill powers to end up restricting what you can do with skills rather than enhancing them, unless they are written to aim for near-exalted levels.

Yeah, I'm not thinking martials get these til around level 7, 5 at the earliest, so I'm good with them being a bit beefy.

Ie, Tumble might be a level 1 Talent that states "On your turn you do not provoke opportunity attacks before you take your action". And lets give it some more utility: "You can make an Acrobatics check as a reaction in a number of situations. When falling, you can reduce falling damage you take by the amount of your check. When failing a Dexterity saving throw, you can roll an Acrobatics check against the same DC and pass if you beat it. When hit by an attack, you can roll an Acrobatics check against the to-hit roll, and the attack misses if you succeed."

Hmmm, acrobatics is hard. I might go with something to the effect of "When an enemy makes an attack roll against you, you can use your reaction to roll acrobatics. If you beat their roll, you may move half your speed in any direction without provoking attacks of opportunity. You are considered proficient in dexterity saving throws if you are the only target of the effect" Allows for dodging beam attacks, and weapon attacks, while not helping with fireballs or AOE vines. It is a martial ability already, unfortunately, but not one that all martials currently have.

I do like the reducing fall damage, not sure about the re-rolling a failed dex save.